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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I am racking my brains here, and coming up with NOTHNG...

81 replies

Oakmaiden · 01/05/2012 12:27

Please help me...

I am writing a dissertation on stereotyping in KS2 children, and have ground to a complete halt.

I am TRYING to think of ways to show that gender stereotyping is pervasive throughout our entire culture - but without mentioning specific things like the media, books, TV programming, advertising etc (they will come later).

All I can come up with so far is that the baby changing units is generally in the women's toilet room.

There must be more examples of mundane things that people hardly notice but which underline the gender roles in society???

OP posts:
margoandjerry · 01/05/2012 14:48

That it is not taken for granted that men will look after their children. In Sweden, it is standard for the wife to do the first six months of childcare and the husband to do the second six months. This is built into the legislation and if the man doesn't take a certain proportion the allowance is lost to the family altogether. In our system, women are entitled to up to a year of mat leave and there is no expectation or allowance in the system for men to take part of this "maternity" leave.

This is why some men talk about looking after their own children as babysitting. It's something unusual that you might do as a favour not something you do because it is your responsibility every day.

DontmindifIdo · 01/05/2012 14:44

Foodunit - interesting, Woman sports get treated with respect every 4 years, but still it's only individual sports, you still don't hear much about female teams.

FoodUnit · 01/05/2012 14:44

Men have more free time than women to play sport.

I agree, but as someone else said, when women exercise it is literally 'on the treadmill'.... Men have teams sports they are taught to play that only require a ball and a couple of jumpers for goal posts. They socialise at school with their friends playing sport and so it wouldn't be weird for a male colleague to ask another - "do you fancy going out for a kickabout?" - whereas if a female colleague asked that of another it would be extraordinary and weird. It is really difficult to get a female 'team' together for that reason...

I'm still thinking here - also, I have had sexual harassment when I've been jogging and I wonder if being 'out on show' makes women and girls worry about being judged and perved over when it comes to outdoor sports?

MiaAlexandrasmummy · 01/05/2012 14:38

Another thing - it might be interesting to look at doing a comparison with American and Australian cultures, where there seems to be a much stronger emphasis (more embedded cultural acceptance, perhaps?) in schools and general life about gender equality, and equality of opportunity.

FoodUnit · 01/05/2012 14:36

DontmindifIdo yes - also (- I know its Media again) football, rugby, cricket are all sports that girls are not routinely taught, and only get televised or media interest with males playing them - and these are seen as 'our national sports'.... and our sports 'heros'.

However, the olympics only comes around every 4 years - I bet you do get a spike in female competitive sport participation then, which dwindles as its 'back to male sports domination as usual'...

MiaAlexandrasmummy · 01/05/2012 14:34
  • The way people always assume you will want pink clothes / gifts / cards for a little girl, and blue for a boy... I had to specifically say that we did not want pink anything for Mia, and it still didn't get through to everyone
  • Little boys often like pink, but are quickly conditioned by classmates / older siblings that "pink is a girl's colour." My little nephew loves pink and yellow!
  • Healthy little boys are described as sturdy, whereas healthy little girls are often described as 'chunky'?!?
  • The phrases "Oh, he's a real little boy / Oh, she's such a girl" as a perfect example of traditional gender stereotyping
AbigailAdams · 01/05/2012 14:34

Oh and what SeventhEverything said - men have more free time to play sport (especially after having children).

AbigailAdams · 01/05/2012 14:33

No Sanjeev it is not that women aren't doing enough to encourage sport in their daughters - what a bizarre notion.

It is a combination of factors, society's obsession with the way women look as opposed to what they do; women and girls being encouraged to play nicely/quietly/gently etc (there is a thread about gender differences further down that highlights a teachers attitude to boys requiring more outdoor play); sport being a man's world; lack of media coverage and lack of media focus on women's sport stars. Not just talking about TV but newspapers as well. If you look at the percentage of pages (or even paragraphs) about women in sport every day in the newspapers it is minimal. It's about the image of sport for women; encouragement and promotion at school; being constantly compared to the male version of whichever sport you do and then; women's sport never being taken as seriously as men's and yes, being encouraged by family members (not just the female members of the family).

MadameChinLegs · 01/05/2012 14:32

Op, have you seen Ikeas instruction booklets? How to work this ironing board: heres a picture of a woman showing you how. How to build this shelf: heres a picture of a man showing you how.

CinnabarRed · 01/05/2012 14:32

Cars. Each model is assigned a gender and set up accordingly. I'm sure I read that the steering column on some "man" cars is sufficiently high that it's dangerous for people below a certain height in the event of a crash (ie predominantly women) because it crushes their pelvis rather than their legs. Ditto tall people (ie predominantly men) can't fit comfortably into "girl" cars.

SeventhEverything · 01/05/2012 14:31

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

DontmindifIdo · 01/05/2012 14:29

sorry, that is only half a post! Perhaps sport is something woman don't do so girls don't do... being thin might be part of being a woman, being a sportsman is part of being a man.

FoodUnit · 01/05/2012 14:29

Sanjeev I have to say, I actually feel a bit frightened when I walk to the areas where they have all the playing fields near me. And the fear I have is a fear of rape/sexual assault. I am aware that people wouldn't hear me scream and I feel nervous every time another male walks past (since it is only ever males that do).... I wonder if the fact that these spaces are not made welcoming and safe-feeling for females are partly to blame?

Also, if you only see men/boys wearing cricket whites on your common for example, there is an element of gender transgression so a girl has to have the courage to confront this to join in - and she may well be told they only have males even if she does get far enough to enquire.

There are a lot of factors including parents perhaps not doing enough, but I think local governments really have to do more to get 50% female on their playing fields.

DontmindifIdo · 01/05/2012 14:26

It seems that exercise is something woman do to be healthy and maintain their figures (and sexual attractiveness) whereas exercise is something men do for fun. Therefore the exercise woman seem to do is just that, running, gym, fitness classes, but men it's sports, the running/gym etc is often seen as getting fitness up to do the sports well, attractiveness is a by product, not an end in itself.

Sanjeev · 01/05/2012 14:20

Agreed FoodUnit, but why? We have fantastic sportwomen in the UK - Ennis, Addlington, Pendleton, Halsall, Radcliffe etc etc etc. The women's rugby and football teams are brilliant - far more stature amongst their peers than the men's equivalent.

Are women doing enough to encourage their daughters to participate, or is it just a great big 'meh'?

FoodUnit · 01/05/2012 13:57

If you walk past huge playing fields or commons - all the people playing sport will (99% of the time) be male - either playing football, rugby or cricket.... 'male sports'

Sanjeev · 01/05/2012 13:52

Professional sports is an interesting one though. Why aren't 88,000 women interested in going to Wembley to watch the FA Cup final this month? Lots of women attend men's professional football matches. The Beeb tries to raise the profile of the women's game, but it still ends up in a 20,000 seater stadium. Last year only 13,000 went to the final. I bet there are more than 13,000 women at Wembley for Chelsea vs Liverpool.

messyisthenewtidy · 01/05/2012 13:49

What about the language that adults use too? Stuff like "grow a pair", "man up", "don't be a girl". There is so much talk about a boys passage into manhood (which includes distancing himself from the feminine) yet grown women are referred to as "girls".

witchwithallthetrimmings · 01/05/2012 13:47

Could you illustrate it by talking about a child called say Brooklyn. so B hates drawing and writing, what's the point of things that aren,t true? Never mind, dad is going to bring home my new stunt pegs from work, promises me that we can go the skate park after school, bet I,ll be the only girl there again

Oakmaiden · 01/05/2012 13:43

slug - oh the roles in schools thing! That is my concluding paragraph! How can we expect children to challenge stereotyping and to aspire to a wide range of opportunities, when within school we reinforce those stereotypes at every turn!

OP posts:
AbigailAdams · 01/05/2012 13:41

How about how boys are the default, girls should aspire to be like boys. Girls can wear boys clothes, play with boys toys etc but not so much the other way.

Standards of behaviour, boys held to a lesser standard of behaviour than girls.

In sport, boys sports are mainstream e.g. football, cricket, rugby. Girls get netball, rounders, hockey. How girls play sport is always measured against how boys play sport (not vice versa - again going back to boys being the default)

lancelottie · 01/05/2012 13:40

Sorry, i see you DIDN'T want books, and you're looking at 7-11 year olds. I think the clothing still applies.

messyisthenewtidy · 01/05/2012 13:39

The jobs that our children see us doing and the jobs that we as adults encourage them do. Our expectations for them are reflected in the behaviour we reward. A little girl picks up a remote control, she's just changing the channel. A little boy picks it up, and oh look, he's gonna be an engineer.

We were in a shop a while ago. I was trying on a top and asked DS what he thought. He said he didn't like it. The shop assistant said jovially "what does he know, he's just a boy". The look DS gave her! I was so proud of him. Obviously she was just joking but it all goes in, this idea that boys shouldn't care about certain things. Luckily have trained DS in the art of stereotype spotting.

I think the fact that it's so hard to pinpoint is because it's so deeply woven into everyday life. Each individual case seems tiny and trivial but add it all up and it gives a distinct picture.

Good luck with your project.

witchwithallthetrimmings · 01/05/2012 13:39

Heard this about shoes before, girls shoes less hard wearing so guess what they will be discouraged from climbing and scooting
Playgrounds are very mixed, while the areas for older kids. ( skate parks, football pitches, basketball courts ) seem very very male

DontmindifIdo · 01/05/2012 13:38

Toddler groups - there are many "Mum and Toddler" groups, working on the principle that while Mums might work, Dads won't be primary carers.