What makes a Woman a Woman? (Or a Man a Man)

Do you have children? Are they boys or girls? How do you know?

tbh I think it is a straw argument. It is like me calling something a chair and you saying how do you know it is a chair?
A - Because you sit on it.
Q - But you can sit on an elephant, si that also a chair?

etc etc.

I want to know what a woman is.

Because if there is no definition then that's a bit of an issue.

But unless someone is intersex, we do recognise whether a baby si a girl or a boy. We just do. We don't need to get into which combination of chromosomes mean that someone should be recognised as a girl or boy at birth. If you have a child, how did you decide they were a girl or a boy as a baby?

oilfilled - if you go to Wotever World you'll meet a large number of brave people who are challenging the gender binary. (It's a pretty good night out as well).

I think two problems with the everyday practicality of including chromosomes in the definition of any combination of girl/woman/female/boy/man/male are:

1. many people do not know their own chromosome combination
2. many people do not know the chromosomal combination of other people

What about the social and ethical issues of introducing a compulsory universal system of chromosome testing at birth for every baby born in the world as well as dealing with the backlog of every child and many adults already alive?

Humans have several primary sexual characteristics (the reproductive system), most of which are internal. Only a few are visible, such as vulva and testicles, and these are usually not displayed publicly. There are also numerous secondary sexual characteristics, not involved in reproduction e.g. breasts and Adam's apple.

All sorts of complications in recognising someone's "sex" have arisen since the invention of plastic surgery, which can create imitations of most, if not all, of these external body parts.

I think self definition reinforces gender expectations. After all if someone can be a woman but have a male body, because they feel like a woman - then it begs the question, what does a woman feel like?

What it ends up boiling down to are stereotypes of the differences between how men and women feel and behave.

tbh I think we all know what a woman and man is. When girls and boys are born as babies, we know from appearance and genitals whhether they are a girl or boy. Yes someone can be intersex as well where the gender isn't clear, but this doesn't detract from the fact that we do know.

In terms of why should it matter? In an ideal world it shouldn't. Just as it shouldn't matter whether someone is black or white. In reality sexism and racism mean that these things do matter. We are treated differently because we are woman by society and institutions as well as individuals.

I suggest :

If someone is born with a penis, and if they are happy with their socially-constructed gender role in their society, then he is a boy/man.

Due to the male domination of society, that particular biological sex/anatomy/social gender role combination is given the privileged position of "normal" against which everyone else's mind and body is judged and categorised.

Patriarchy encourages everyone else to fight over other categories, in the hope of not being left at the bottom of the damaging hierarchy created by Patriarchy.

Whether there is one or more other category is probably of no concern to most of the most privileged group, men who like being men, because they are not adversely affected by the existence of other sexes and/or genders.

You could do it as a group, not as individuals. All it takes is one brave, brave person.

But those who want to 'self-define' are the very ones who CAN change the gender binary. They can lead the way in demolishing it.

Actually, my bad, they do not produce sterility as puberty restarts when the blockers are stopped.

www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/8454002/Puberty-blocker-for-children-considering-sex-change.html

You know there was a time when psychiatrists insisted that homosexuality was a brain disorder, thank goodness this is now seen as not being the case. However there are many charlatans who believe that they can cure gays/lesbians.

And all because society loves the gender binary.

I just think it's a massively problematic area.

As I said, I only know one transgendered person. And she is lovely. Really lovely.

Why should she be made to feel unwelcome, be subjected to a hostile environment, and have her views and experiences belittled?

Yes, I am happy with case by case. I don't like sweeping generalisations

Sorry, hathor, I know you saw it. I don't see why we have to judge.

To clarify, I guess I'd say that if you have none of the things on my list, I want to know, what do you have that defines your sex? I can't think what it would be, but if you do have something, I assume this thread is the place to say what it is, right?

Is it okay to give children hormones to prevent puberty? I'm not sure that it is. I have friends with a very severely disabled daughter and I know it's something they have thought about but they feel very conflicted about it. Is there any other reason people give their children hormones to prevent puberty?

No, LRD I saw it - that's why I asked how we judge what exceptions are acceptable and which aren't

Just to clarify, the first line of my post above isn't invisible, is it?