What makes a Woman a Woman? (Or a Man a Man)

I would also love to live in a world where we are all just people. But I agree we are a million miles away from that.

I would love to live in a world where we were all just people

But we're a trillion miles from that.

What I mean is, how you you ignore the fact there are men and women, while things are still unequal between men and women?

How does that even begin to work?

If sex is taken out of the equation and everyone is just people, it won't suddenly mean that women aren't the ones getting pregnant and everything to do with that, and that women aren't allowed to drive in Saudi and all the rest of it. SWIM?

Yes, of course! I had forgotten those.

Orm have you read any Iain M Banks "culture" series? The humanoid people can change sex naturally - they sort of think it and then gradually it happens. Soem choose to remain in an in-between state. It's very interesting.

I don't see how we can start being relaxed about and getting rid of the concepts of gender ( and sex?) when we live in a world which is so terribly heavily gendered and most people are very definite about there being 2 sexes etc.

I have always loved those feminist sci-fi novels where sex is questionable and mutable - Women of the Edge of Time and one of the Le Guin short stories where people are more or less 'sexless' until a specific phase of their lives where they mate and can do so as either sex. If our sex is going to land us with a load of rules and assumptions I'd rather just be 'person' than 'female' or 'males'.

How is it different?

A male who had been subjected to a sexual assault by a woman would feel the same as a woman who had been attacked by a man surely?

hathor the potential consequences for a MTF trans being somewhere that women don't really want them are quite different to the potential consequences for a FTM trans being in a male space that men don't really want them in.

Most violent crime is committed by men. When men don't like something they quite often comment with their fists while women are more likely to express displeasure with words.

I have not heard of any lobbies of FTM to get into male spaces - have there been any - what was the outcome. Do FTM people feel safe in "male" spaces. Given that trans are at higher risk of violence than other people to start with.

I don't know. It would be interesting to find out how that all works.

Dont have time to read this now, will later - my argument to DP whenever he describes a transgender in their origina sex (annoying) is that to me, someone is whatever sex they WANT to be, so if its a pre-op transexual i woud refer to him/her as whatever they portray themselves as

What are the chances of a black man becoming President of the USA? - not so long ago, that would have had the same chances.

If we are talking about "The Patriarchy" there have always been groups who do not reap the full benefit.

eg men with disabilities, men who are black, men who are poor (but who still do better than women with disabilities, women who are black, women who are poor etc) and obviously looking at UK here.

I suspect "The Patriarchy" would put FTM trans in with the other less privileged groups of men.

It is all very hierarchical with rich able bodied white men and the top. It is not the case that all men do better than all women in all things.

However there are some things which cut across all barriers which are mainly to do with the fact that men are generally bigger and stronger than women and children.

But men who don't want FtM transgendered individuals in changing rooms and such like, they have every bit as much right to object as a woman who objects to a MtF in a changing room?

Not read the thread, but its your chromosomes i believe. Even if you are trans gender, your desires, feelings, needs come ultimately from your genetic make up, so whilst i say its genetic i dont just mean that its simply a case of gettin two XXs if that makes sense

hathorkicksass wrote - "Vesuvia, that argument doesn't take into account how men feel about FtM transgendered individuals?"

I'll refine

"the Patriarchy cares only enough to define women as part of the huge group of people who are not 'men who are happy being men'.

to

"the Patriarchy cares only enough to define women as part of the huge group of people who are not 'men who have never been long-term* unhappy about their birth sex'.

*I believe at least some transgender diagnoses use 6 months for that type of assessment.

I don't think the Patriarchy care much about FtM transgendered people.

What are the chances of a FtM transgendered person becoming President of the USA?

But surely, Vesuvia, that argument doesn't take into account how men feel about FtM transgendered individuals?

SardineQueen wrote - "If a woman is someone who feels like a woman, where does that leave women who don't feel like women, but just feel like people. What are they?"

Unfortunately, the Patriarchy cares only enough to define women as part of the huge group of people who are not "men who are happy being men". I suggest that it probably matters more to you and many other feminists and other oppressed groups, because we are in that "othered" group.

The Patriarchy has no interest in how a vague or unsatisfactory definition of woman impacts anyone who isn't in their dominant controlling group. Various groups can define themselves and other "non-man" groups any way they like, but that is of no concern to the people who call the shots. The Patriarchy doesn't care if being a woman is about chromosomes, genitals, breasts or if you like pink dresses or love shopping. It just doesn't care which individuals do that gender role as long as there is an oppressed class that they can oppress. Why would a Patriarchal society feel the need to bother about a watertight definition of something that it doesn't care about? Oppressed groups not having a vocabulary to express themselves is a victory for the Patriarchy.

And with society's idea of what a woman is, I don't feel like a woman a lot of the time either. But I am one and am treated as one all the time.

Well this is it. If your sex is how you feel, then it is impossible to ascertain the sex of children until they are old enough to know how they feel.

If a woman is someone who feels like a woman, where does that leave women who don't feel like women, but just feel like people. What are they?

Is it only people who feel that they are one sex or another who can claim to be of that sex, with a group of people who don't feel that way as a third group?

But surely having operations, electrolysis, etc to alter your body suggests you do care whether you are a man or woman? After all, why have it in the first place if these categories do not matter?

If you were talking about people who did not alter their body and simply said, don't define me, then that would be a challenge of a type.

But my point is that you know why you think they are girls? We don't need to get into talking about chromosomes for example for you to know that.

Elephants - I was referring specifically to Bar Wotever and its denizens, not transpeople in general. There's a lot of variation. Some transpeople just want to 'pass', and vanish into the gender norm. I don't see many ways that this challenges the gender binary. However others (who might describe themselves as genderqueer rather than trans) choose to celebrate their 'queerness' rather than disappearing.

I cited Wotever World, and Bar Wotever in particular, because it's a cabaret and social night where a lot of genderqueer people get together who do challenge the idea of normative gender. The founding rationale for the event was the 'wotever' idea - ie who gives a shit whether you're a man, a woman or something else altogether. Oilfilledlamp was talking about how transpeople as a group might challenge rather than reinforce gender norms, so I wanted to suggest that perhaps in some cases that's exactly what is happening.

I think my children are girls but then who can say

Huge - why do you think Transgender peopel challenge the gender binary? I think they reinforce it, so I would genuinely like to know.