New Trans thread as requested by HQs.

Yes of course the MtoF addressed in front of them, there was no privacy at all. It is not about being threatened. Some women have no problem sleeping in a communal room with men they don't know, that is their choice. But if a woman books to sleep in a communal space that she is told is women only, I think it is fair reasonable that she can be unhappy if there turns out to be a Transgender person sleeping there with a male body and a penis.

Thing is, it's not trans people who created the binary gender system any more than it is people born with the organs or hormones or other identifiers that mean all feminists recognise them as women created it. I can't see how either actually benefit from that system either. But, and it's a big but, to some degree, we all have to negotiate the system that assigns relative and status based on gender identity.

I don't believe it is right that society limits human beings to being feminine or masculine because these are subjective concepts, social constructs and often used to contain, control, direct and exclude. I also don't believe it is right that society limits human beings to being male or female because these aren't 100% absolutely determinable every human, and I also believe these categorisations have been and continue to be used as the rationale for containing, controlling, directing and excluding people (e.g. physical, hormonal, psychological explanations for "treating" women and men differently.)

So, unless we want to risk ridicule, isolation, exclusion and even violence (for threatening the "natural order" of things or some such!), we have to be male or female. That's an easier choice to make for some of us than for others. For those who know the label they were assigned at birth isn't right for them, even if they believe they are something other than the other label, they effectively have to opt for the other label.

There are activists in every social and political movement who aren't necessarily representative of all the people they appear to speak for. So often their existence and "way out" views are used as an excuse to conveniently dismiss the movements they are involved in. Sometimes people in those movements feel embarrassed by them. Sometimes though the Arthur Scargills and the Al Sharptons stick their necks out and say unpalatable, provocative things that at least stir thinking. But yes, some activists can appear to be self-motivated and not really care about the impact of their words and actions on others in the movement.

I can only feel despair though when I see some feminists appropriating the methodology of MRAs to demean, to dehumanise, to demonise trans people. I still can't help but think that this is a waste of our valuable time, resource, energy and creativity, leaving those who genuinely benefit from patriarchy, who represent the greatest threat to women (and to trans people as well, as an adjunct of misogyny,) continue to flourish.

Just want to share a post I made on the other thread that has been started in response to this one about what makes a woman a woman, for the people on here who've said it's dead easy to say whether somebody is a woman or not.

I wrote a paper on this when I was at uni. Basically, no matter how you define men and women you can always find one exception to the rule (for example, if you define women as people with XX chromosomes and men as people with XY chromosomes where does that leave people who are born with XY chromosomes but have the external appearance of a woman and are raised as one?). The only meaningful definition of gender/sex is one that people arrive at for themselves. Therefore if MTF transsexuals wish to define themselves as female who are we to tell them that they're not?

P.S. Did the trans person at your conference cause any problems, elephant? Did they perve on anybody or assault anybody or violate anybody in any way? I'm guessing the answer is no and I put it to you that if anybody had complained that would have been transphobia.

I can see how it would feel a bit odd. I don't know the answer, if one goes back to strictly segregated sleeping areas, doesn't that risk reinforcing the gender binary again?

Why? Did they feel threatened? Why was the MtoF transgendered person any more likely to threaten them that a woman who was a lesbian?

elephants - did s/he dress/undress in front of them?

Because they had chosen to sleep in a communal space for women only. The MtoF Trans had a male body and a penis. You may not care about this, but many many women would.

Elephants - why were the women unhappy?

OMG I lost "where the only ones getting changed were me and DD and it wouldn't have bothered me and I would have made DD just deal with it"

"Ok, has anyone ever ever been in a changing room with a pre op mtf?"

I attended a festival/conference type thing where communal sleeping space was provided - separate for men and women. There was a pre op MtoF who was sleeping in the communal women's space. Lots of women felt very very unhappy about it, but didn't feel they could say anything as any concerns raised were labelled as transphobia.

By communal sleeping space I mean sleeping bags on camp beds - there was no privacy at all. The next year the skleeping accommodation was all provided in locked individual bedrooms, without any communal sleeping space making it too expensive for some people to go to.

I take DD swimming to the local pool. It has male and female changing areas.

The utter faff that some poor woman had to go through to get her big teenaged son with learning difficulties changed was ridiculous.

She had to :

Get out of the pool.

Get him out of the pool.

Both in cozzies dripping wet.

Walk all the way through the female changing (where the only ones getting changed).

All the way out to the desk.

Get the receptionist to call an attendant.

Walk back to changing room.

Wait for attendant.

Who then got the key for the disabled changing room.

Walk all the way back through the female changing and round the corner to the disabled changing.

That's an issue.

I have to say ... this thing about unisex loos is the sort of 'issue' that could have been solved by accepting that gender is a stupid non-category years ago.

Our local pool has a massive unisex changing room with lockable cubicles so I have no idea what people have going on under their cozzies. I'm far too worried about trying to keep my pubes under control to worry about anyone else

As a side issue, I used to frequent a gay bar many years ago where the three women used the men's, because there was always a giant queue for the ladies that the boys insisted on using (not trans either)

hey ho

And I agree with LRD

and yy re loos etc

And I agree with SGM - proper bathrooms with proper doors for everyone and that solves the problem.

I don't get why we have gendered loos anyway. Honestly. I've never met a man who said 'oh, no, this loo has no urinal, how will I cope!' or anyone who has ever installed a urinal into their home. Surely we could all cope with six shared loos rather than three for women and three for men?

I am sure the men would survive the chilling experience of peeing next to a tampon bin, too.

Ok, has anyone ever ever been in a changing room with a pre op mtf? Or know anyone that has (not heard about it or read some horror story) real actual verifiable actual?

And the point was forcibly made on the other thread that it didn't matter what they looked like or whether they were pre- or post-op they were male and had no right to be in the female changing areas. Even in cubicles.

OFL - exactly my point.