Male nurses supervising female patients/female nurses supervising male patients

Just a quick point - it's not just an issue of ensuring that male health care practitioners are accompanied by female staff when carrying out intimate procedures. In the case I described, I don't know that the Senior Staff nurse was ever actually on his own with the vulnerable female clients, or the student nurses for that matter. He did what he did in front of other patients and staff, so perhaps it fits more closely with the concept of sexual harassment rather than sexual assault.

But, it wasn't just his behaviour towards the vulnerable women patients or the female student nurses that was the issue. Male patients copied what he was doing in their behaviour towards women patients and toward student nurses. Another student nurse and I were surely not the only staff there who noticed this. (In the hearing, the senior nurse claimed that hugging, kissing and calling female patients 'terms of endearment' was "therapeutic" -- absolute bullshit!)

With regard to porn, about once a fortnight when some of the patients received a payment/allowance, those allowed outside the ward (and on at least one occasion, a male member of staff!) went to the corner shop and bought porn mags, which the male patients tended to pass around. It was extremely "tame" by comparison to the explicit, overtly violent imagery in porn today. Even so, I was stunned by the impact of consuming porn on male patients - in terms of their sexually disinhibited behaviour and language used with particularly female staff, and in their interactions with female patients. Again, I couldn't believe no one else noticed the connection between having to pull male patients off vulnerable female patients in the 24-48 hours after these magazines made the rounds. I'd never thought one way or other about porn before that, but my eyes were flipping opened, that's for sure.

If you are going to be campaigning for male psychiatric nurses who are falsely accused of sexually abusing their clients, then there must be an opportunity for that in the first place.

what makes you think i disagree with the chaperone policy?

discrimination against male members of staff?

is this a joke or is he actually that stupid? what do you think the odds of female psych patients having experienced some sort of sexual violence in their lives prior to admission might be?

This thread is throwing up some excellent examples of why "I believe you" is so important.

When it come to being believed, female mental health patients are not in a terribly great position, are they. Look at that poor woman I spoke about upthread who committed suicide.

chairmanmeow which is a large part of the reason why male HCPs are not alone with female patients.

It is for the protection of the women and the protection of their carers.

Nyac says that it is a good idea that this "chaperone" policy is in place - do you disagree with her? Won't that result in more false accusations and more actual abuse?

nayc.
does it bother you attall that the accusations may have been truamatic for the male nurses, and even when aquitted there would have been doubt hanging over them? not your battle?

back in the Eighties and Nineties I worked in a variety of Mental Health units, we were hyper vigilant and condemnatory of any suggestion of male staff over-involvement or abuse of female clients, and while it did still happen, generally people were on it fast. Any suggestion of a relationship developing either on or off the ward was really heavily questioned and ended if possible.

However, there was a very different attitude if a female staff member ''fancied'' some of the male patients; we got a lot of quite tough guys in with drug and alcohol problems, and I know of at least three female nurses and two psycho-therapists who had sexual relationships with male clients, without any real consequences to their careers.

That did change later, with a couple of female staff being moved off the ward for inappropriate behaviour, but it was a while coming.

Nayc, I can only comment on my experiences and I can only say that in my experience male mental health nurses were not preditors of clients. I know this is not always the case as KIT pointed out one male nurse, which is very worrying his behaviour was ignored.

I believe that single sex wards are better and healthier for esp the female client with female nurses. But that is not reality and is ideal setting.

The battering of male mental health nurses on this thread sounds like they do need protecting OP I hope this doesn't put your dh off nursing.

I am just trying to explain from a female in the position point of view. Female nurses were more at risk tbh from male patients. But that is part of our job so not grumbling, just stating another experience as males just as unwell as females.

But a male nurse is never allowed to be left alone with a female client at any time, it is against guidlines...I hope that gives some reassurrance to you Nyac as we both at least agree yes these are very vulnerable female group.

Different units have different guidelines.
You could argue that a policy of routinely having everyone with 2:1 supervision is unecessarily intrusive, obviously there will be cases when it is needed, but everyone? It might be that the type of unit does justify that approach, but it isnt the case that everyone receiving nursing observation needs 2 members of staff, or that staff always have to be of the same gender as the patient.

But male nurses and female patients aren't in need of 50-50 protection. The numbers of sexual predators is much higher than the number of false accusations of sexual predation.

A woman who has been sectioned under the mental health act and is unable to leave her facility is far more vulnerable than any nurse.

Yes bobble and that is why it is is good they have guidlines like at least one female nurse with male nurse...protects both parties...50/50. If guidlines are followed then there should be no risk of abuse.

Men are much more likely to be sexual abusers. Fact.

I don't know Nyac, one male patient was found guilty. So justice done their thankfully! Every case is taken seriously and their is hospital policies also. I think if it wasn't taken seriously then they would allow 2 male nurses to be with one female patient otherwise.

Hand on heart I know the male nurses I had experience to work with were not preditors. I would have been the first wistleblower let me tell you!

OT There was a lot of affairs but that was between staff members and their buisness!

But women are never believed about sexual assault. Women with mental health problems have even more problems being believed. So predators can have a field day in that setting. Hence women patients being offered some protection by having to have female staff present. You can't trust the police to get to the bottom of things, because generally they don't.

I'm sure that female patients are at risk from male patients too. They're at risk full stop.

There was a lot of female staff attacked Nyac by male clients.

I only had that one case personally but yes a lot of female client accusations, that were always investigated, male nurses suspended, police brought in etc. I do not know of a male mental health nurse being found gulity in MY experience.....but yes lots of reports of male nurses. It is not my job to judge/believe neither the client or the nurse as I am their to just support the female client...that is the police/forensics job.
Female clients more at risk from male clients in my experience.

Discrimination against staff?
I think the patient's safety, privacy and dignity superceeds the 'rights' of staff.

I wasn't accusing you of being unprofessional. I wasn't really thinking about your profession, I was just wondering why you were saying that sexual assault doens't happen to female mental patients by male staff but also saying that there are a lot of accusations (that aren't believed). That seems contradictory. Have you thought that maybe more of those accusations are true than perhaps you thought.

Nyac, why are you accussing me of being unprofessional? I have helped client who was accusing male nurse and took it very serious! However the occassion reported I was on duty and the male nurse was not even their! Client not well, not their fault I never judged!!
I did not say it NEVER happens (just has never happened in my 20 years of experience) I said some people work in professions who should not be their...if you reread my last sentence...happens among lots of pofessions!

OP I think your dh should go to NMC for guidlines as it is not discrimination...but protection for all male nurse and female client. If your dh goes against these guidlines then your dh is not following professional guidlines.

I"m really worried that you're dismissing female patients who are reporting assualts by male nurses as deluded seaofyou.

You're saying it never happens, but in the next breath reporting that there are patients reporting that it does. Why don't you believe them?

well all the male nurses I knew were either married to other nurses, gay, or knocking another female nurse off...so OP be warned(JOKE)! But never heard of abusing a female client! To much choice in the staffroom (JOKE)!
There is a lot of female clients who are unwell and become deluded they are with male nurses etc... as they look up to them/father figure etc etc
But of course like any profession there are people who should never be working with that type of vulnerble group...just never saw/heard anything on my watch!

I've had an allegation made against me as a student nurse (NOT sexual) and I would do anything now to protect myself from that again. Equally, patients in my care are vulnerable and to be protected.

If both male and female staff have to stick to certain policies, how exactly can it be discrimination?

Why would men want access to vulnerable female patients anyway. I'd be suspicious of any man who didn't understand the vulnerability of women in that situation and the fact that they need to be protected, not have men's "rights" put first.

Kritiq that's a horrifying story.

Re-read that - of course sexual abuse against vulnerable females is carried out by those who are supposed to be caring for them, just trying to make the point that they are at risk from fellow patients as well.

I also thought that sexual abuse of female patients with mental health issues was very common. Although I think much of it is perpetrated by fellow patients. There was that awful case on the news the other day where a woman had been raped and no-one believed her and she committed suicide but they discovered in the end that she had been telling the truth.

Also I don't think discrimination is quite the right word - what is the negative impact on a male nurse not being able to work with female patients in this situation? I don't think male gynaes etc feel discriminated against that they have to have a female chaperone there for examinations.

And as others have pointed out - it helps prevent abuse and it helps prevent malicious accusations (I don't know how common this with women in these institutions but I Believe You would be my starting point - see case I mentioned earlier).