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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Erin Pizzey's work with Refuges

292 replies

ParsleyTheLioness · 10/04/2012 08:40

Talking about this on the Relationships board. Does anyone remember this woman from the 60's/70's who set up an early(?) refuge? Are her work and writings still valid today, or discredited at all, anyone have any knowledge? I may not be spelling correctly.

OP posts:
sunshineandbooks · 12/04/2012 17:01

How would you propose we stop DV Hmm?

I think the uncomfortable truth is that the only way to stop DV is to get men to stop doing it. The comfortable truth has always been to say that if women didn't provoke it or put up with it there wouldn't be a problem.

I'm not sure society is becoming more violent. Compare to the middle ages for example. There's possibly been an increase in personal violence and a decrease in group violence in the west. But while I don't condone women glassing other women (interesting you refer to a specific form of violence for women whereas men just have 'drunkenness') women are only behaving in ways that men have always done (and they are still doing it in far fewer numbers). The reaction this provokes is telling. Why is it more shocking when women behave violently? The reaction to women being violent is the right one because violence is unacceptable. What is sad is how normalised and excused male violence is.

BasilFoulEggs · 12/04/2012 16:57

hmm your arguments just sound like the usual non-feminist ones to me - it's not sexism or patriarchy that stops us achieving equality,it's our own psychology. how convenient, that means there's no need to change society then, women have just got to change their attitude.

that's one analysis, but it's not a feminist one.

LineRunner · 12/04/2012 16:36

HmmmThinkingAboutIt, I just been reading this thread and I can't help but wonder why it matters to you that we believe that you are a woman, given your arguments about being seen as a person and not a label.

swallowedAfly · 12/04/2012 16:19

it's not an 'accident' that women have problems with self confidence.

ciba? idtic.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 15:47

TrophyEyes
People's experiences colour how they think. It depends entirely on the angle you come at things from. In answer to what you said, I'll post my personal POV in an attempt to try and explain the angle I come from.

How do you think victim blaming helps women's rights?
I explained about how I felt about victim blaming as a tag. I find it unconstructive at times. If there are common patterns, they need to be looked at and explored without blame placed anywhere as controversial as that may be. I do feel that blame all round in certain situations doesn't necessarily resolve things. I think there is a certain element to DV where abusers are themselves victims or have been victims. If the focus is on pinning blame rather than taking a wider social responsibility and finding out why something is happening and continues to happen, you have lost sight of what the real issue is.

I've mentioned before about how the IRA bombing my town in the early nineties has had a profound effect on my life. My 'hero' as such is a guy called Colin Parry, for his work in bridging communities between the UK and NI. Instead of looking at the blame for who was responsible for his son's murder, which would be so understandable, he looked at the problems underlying it all and how you broke the cycle.

Its made me try and look at other sides to things, even unpleasant ones. Because sometimes you have to, to make things better. Uncomfortable truths need to be heard.

How do you think minimising domestic abuse and rape helps women's rights?
Minimising domestic abuse doesn't help anyones rights as far as I am concerned. You can leave the women part out of it.

How do you think refocusing the lens on the smaller number of male victims helps women's rights?
Because the issue is about violence in society in general. The issue isn't just about women's rights to me. I stopped going to a certain town for a night out, because it has a reputation for violence, which to me seemed based on a certain amount of substance. The violence wasn't just male on male drunkenness but also women glassing other women. I think its part of a wider issue about how violence happens and why is acceptable in society. And where it originates from.

BasilFoulEggs, I think we are marginalised not just because of others but because of ourselves too, now. I think by clinging to the idea of the patriarchy we are often giving ourselves a good excuse not to succeed.

I look at the context of wider society in 2012, and there is a very wide disenchantment with the establishment and unfair distribution of power. Its shared by men and women. Social mobility has decreased for everyone in the last two decades, and thats massively important and shouldn't be ignored in the context of everything else. White working class men are turning to the BNP as 'job are going to immigrants' but there is evidence to suggest the problem also has been caused by stereotyping accompanied by a lack of traditional opportunities which has also effected work ethics and confidence, and it is creating a vicious cycle. How do you break that? I think it also has important lessons for how you approach any further erosion of male roles in society and how that might cause conflict, tension and resentment. Men shouldn't just be 'sucking it up'. There also needs to be a real effort to prove that hard work across the board reaps rewards. If the erosion of privilege isn't at the expense of those at the top, but only further down the chain and doesn't allow working class men and women to also be part of the advancement, you are saving up a whole bunch of new problems there. We have the foresight to see this is a potential problem so we should be doing things to reassure men, and to show that any changes to society have benefit to it as a whole. (And now I sound like a raving socialist which I am not!).

I do feel women are somewhat guilty of the same thing to a degree, with regard to blame. I think a lot of women don't feel able to achieve for whatever reason, and have a lack of self confidence which feeds the system. I do think its a hangover, which is distorting the problem and we have more opportunity than we realise and more doors are open to us than we perhaps think. The perception is very negative ad there is an underlying attitude that you are not the master of your own destiny. I think there is too much of a negative attitude that we can't achieve, which leads to less women trying in the first place, which is down to us, rather than the men around us.

I certainly did find it very interesting the range of reactions I got when deciding to go around the world alone. My male friends thought it was great. They were really supportive. My female friends questioned it or said they wouldn't do it. My plan was for westernised countries only, with exception of thailand which was my last stop (and I ended up missing it out in the end anyway). When I was travelling, the guys never batted an eyelid about me being a lone female, and they tended to travel alone. It was the girls who were in pairs and did everything together. I could understand the lack of support and fair questioning if I had been going somewhere more exotic, but it was very 'safe'.

I honestly think that self-confidence and the importance it has can't be underestimated. I wish I had a lot more of it.

gah.... essay... sorry.

BasilFoulEggs · 12/04/2012 14:58

hmm there is no group more marginalised than w omen. take any marginalized group and you will find that the women in that group are more marginalised than the men in that group

Nyac · 12/04/2012 14:25

I thought someone else had called you male Hmmm so that's what you were. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

We'd hope that would happen SGB, but women's rights are currently being eroded.

solidgoldbrass · 12/04/2012 14:22

OK, this stuff about feminism 'going too far' - what that means is that feminism is about women having full, equal human rights. The problem is that this means men have to give up some privilege. Because when we are all equal, men won't be able to take more of the available resources, won't be able to expect women to defer to them just because a woman lacks a penis, won't feel entitled to have a woman service them just because she's a woman... It will mean fewer top jobs for men, because more of them will be held by women.
Now no one likes to give up privilege, but, basically, tough shit. Because it will happen. It is happening, slowly but steadily. ANd it will go on happening.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 14:02

I think the aims of feminism differ depending on who you talk to. For some its about liberation from the oppression of men. For others its just about equality, but with the focus on women raising to the position of men.

For me I don't think either really works completely, as if you aren't taking on board the converse effects of the changes in society that feminism brings in achieving those goals then you simply create other problems for human rights. You are still putting people into little boxes and giving them labels than you then associate with certain things and I do feel thats part of the very heart of the problem. I want to be a human. Not a woman with more rights if that makes sense. I appreciate the difference is probably very subtule, and a lot of people won't get where I am coming from with this, but its important to me and as part of my identity as a person. I want the freedom to just be as I am, not for people to still make judgments about me based on my gender and I don't feel that feminism necessarily frees me from that.

I certainly have a number of issue with the radfeminism school of thought that I've seen on here. I find it far from radical and indeed very conservative in nature. My political line of thought is libertarian in nature, so the idea of banning x, y and z for whatever reason doesn't sit well with me. I generally believe you have to make change by consensus and social acceptance rather than law. Some of the views with regard to religion and trans-genderism I've seen on here have rather disturbed me. As a society we want to judge people and we can't cope when people don't fit the boxes. I think thats a far more radical way of thinking than the one I feel I am being offered by various types of feminism I've seen particular ones discussed on MN.

I do agree we are all trying to work for the list of human rights sgb just put, but I do think the danger we are now in, is having got so far further progress is much harder and the emphasis needs to be on benefits for society as a whole rather than simply benefits for women. Or indeed any other group within society that is in someway more marginalised.

FWIW, given what I've just posted and what Nyac posted upthread, I'd best point out that I am female and I have always been female. It says rather more about her that she placed an assumption about me being male on this thread. Thats the type of thing I don't like. Assumptions and being expected to somehow fit in with others ways of thinking and then being wrongly labelled when you somehow don't fit the box. I've never fitted any box, and I probably never will.

Probably doesn't make any sense to anyone else, but I do think its a very personal thing for me and I've posted before about how my experiences are probably somewhat different to others. We are all products of our own experiences and we all hold different truths. They are of no less value. I just wish that we would stop imposing generalisations on each other to the degree we do. That kind of goes across the board on everything for me. I tend to create a first impression of myself which is very different from the real me, so I do get particularly frustrated by stereotypes.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 13:49

Women's rights are specifically feminist though. To try and separate them out from feminism is just plain odd. Straw-grasping really.

MooncupGoddess · 12/04/2012 13:48

It's true that 'rights' has a distinctive legal meaning, whereas feminism is concerned with a much wider set of issues, including the cultural attitudes that allow men to treat women like shit.

Quite often I see people saying 'well of course women should have equal rights in law, but feminism Goes Too Far'. This is progress of a kind, since 40 years ago these same type of people would have been adamantly opposed to the Equal Pay Act, etc, but it is still rather a weak position that demonstrates an unwillingness to engage with the issues at hand.

AbigailAdams · 12/04/2012 13:47

Irma Kurtz. She was great. Had forgotten all about her. Thanks Nyac.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 13:44

Here is one of the very first Feminist texts by Mary Wollstonecraft, which lays out the idea of women's rights for the first time:

A vindication of the rights of woman

TrophyEyes · 12/04/2012 13:39

What do you consider the aims of feminism, Hmmm?

Also, how do you think discrediting a woman's right to leave a relationship counts towards women's rights?

How do you think victim blaming helps women's rights?

How do you think minimising domestic abuse and rape helps women's rights?

How do you think refocusing the lens on the smaller number of male victims helps women's rights?

This is the bull I'm on about. I'm actually sick to the back teeth of seeing it, and not just from trolls, but from women as well.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 13:36

Bloody hell. Is that the latest tack? To try and pretend that the fight for Women's Rights isn't the same as feminism. Sigmund also said something similar upthread.

Feminism invented the concept of women's rights, for goodness sake. It's the movement, the only movement, that fights for them.

sunshineandbooks · 12/04/2012 13:30

What do you think are the aims of feminism HmmThinking?

solidgoldbrass · 12/04/2012 13:29

Hmm: what on earth do you mean about women's rights being different from feminism? Femisim is about women obtaining full human rights - the right to autonomy, independence, freedom of movement, freedom of association, equal pay for equal work, etc.

HmmThinkingAboutIt · 12/04/2012 13:27

Because women's rights are essentially different from the aims of feminism. You can dislike forms of feminism but still be very concerned about women's rights and problems that disproportionally affect women. Without labelling them as purely as women's issues. I think that it is important to be inclusive in these issues rather than exclusive in doing so. If you are one of those who believe in the patriarchy conspiracy then it breaks the old way of thinking - it makes things gender neutral (Of course if you don't believe in the patriarchy then you are just dealing with the issue).

Its certainly not about derailing anyone's topics. Its about seeing it from another point of view. You refer to it is 'our' topics. But their are not your topics. They are everyone's topics. Just like to point that out.

If you want a good discussion then a broader range of views is better, then everyone sitting there nodding and agreeing with each other. Where we do have common ground - we need to focus on what that is, as where the census lies is where you are going to be able to get the most change done. If you spend all your time looking at the differences, you will have a negative view but you also won't make progress.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 13:26

Cosmo in the 80s used to be great. Thankfully I have erased the memory of Pizzey. I liked Irma Kurtz. :) And Paula Yates used to write for them too.

solidgoldbrass · 12/04/2012 13:24

Erin Pizzey used to write a lot for Cosmopolitan in the 80s, and I used to find her stuff a fairly equal mixture of interesting and fucking annoying even then. So much of what she wrote seemed to be coming from the massive chip on her shoulder and the belief that everyone else was the enemy.

SandyMumsnet · 12/04/2012 13:20

Hello there,

We have had quite a few reports about this thread today. We've taken a look and would like to remind you of our Guidelines.

Can we refer you back to the OP.

Thanks very much.

Sandy
MNHQ

Nyac · 12/04/2012 13:15

Are we all agreed now though that Erin Pizzey isn't a feminist given that she wrote an article that was entitled:

"Why I loathe feminism and believe it will ultimately destroy the family"

This is one of the things that gets me - Pizzey says stuff like that about feminism, yet it's feminists who are berated for not having any time for her or voicing our own criticisms of her. Pizzey can say what she likes about feminists and feminism, but woe betide anybody who dares to state their views on her behaviour or opinions.

Nyac · 12/04/2012 13:12

"Maybe the thought of thinking outside the box is affecting your ears?"

Another dig! You're spoiling me too much Sigmund. :)

TrophyEyes · 12/04/2012 13:12

Excellent post at 12:35, sunshine.

Hmmm, why should we have to deal with those who genuinely dislike feminism, thus derailing any attempts at discourse on issues? Seriously. The number of times I've seen topics about rape, domestic violence, femicide etc derailed by those who "dislike" feminism is disturbing. If these people hate it so much, why are they so adamant that they must come and derail our topics about serious subjects?

SigmundFraude · 12/04/2012 13:08

'My ears are buzzing too now SAF. What do you think that's about?'

Maybe the thought of thinking outside the box is affecting your ears?

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