I didn't know the hate was SO bad

People don't like things to change espcially in ways that challenge social norms, so even if you are fighting for a change that needs to happen, no matter how you do it, you won't be greeted with open arms and cheers. You cannot make an omlet without breaking eggs.
Something which has been playing on my mind for a couple of weeks and does seem sort of relevant to this thread is a website that I came across whilst googling the impact of rape (after a comment on the We Believe You thread). I came across a site called Encyclopedia of Dramatica and this page which was just foul. It was set up like a wikipedia page and was promoting rape and sexual violence in a truely stomach churning manner.
Does anyone on here know how getting it taken down would work?

startail - Doesn't promote a backlash? There is a backlash if you suggest publically that women don't deserve to be raped. Or that DV is wrong. Any challenge will always lead to a backlash.

Sorry sweet grapes, cross posted.
Of course Britain is sexist and of course I want to change that.
I just want that change to be brought about in a careful measured way that doesn't promote a backlash and takes all women and the majority of men with it.

The present situation is indeed a veneer of equality under which a terrible lot of wrong carries on.

I don't know how we change that, I just worry that some of what we are doing is counter productive.

startail, I don't think anyone has suggested that men shouldn't notice that women are women. What we're asking is not to be treated like shit because of our gender. We're asking to be respected as human beings who happen to be female, the same way that men treat other men who happen to be taller, shorter, blonde etc etc. It's the same as any other 'ism' - not about pretending that we're the same, but that realising that the differences don't make one person inherently superior to the other or give any right to treat a different person with any less respect than someone the same as you.

night [busmile]

okey dokey. Good night!! [busmile]

sweet - startail posts stuff like this all the time so don't get wound up about it. Some women imo don't really understand sexism and its impact.

Anyway, am off to bed. God, I shouldn't have opened this thread last thing. Am all wound up now.

I am representative of my sex, I have tits, no penis and have given birth twice.

I am a woman not some androgynous sexless object.

Any man who fails to notice that needs to go to spec savers.

Sorry I'm getting flippant, but I find people who take life quite as seriously as posters on this broad do a bit much after a while.

startail - I am from a developing country and have seen first hand some of these terrible things you say happen there. (Not to me personally thank god!)
I have said this loads of times - I was shocked when I came to London - all the attitudes that I thought I had left behind are all here! They may not be a majority - but definetely all alive and kicking.
It is just the veneer that says "hey it's all trivial and white women don't have any problems". Scratch the veneer and it's all there. Kids of 11/12 being raped - and whats the first thing asked? What was she wearing? How was her makeup? Did she look 14? 14 ?!!
All the "She was asking for it" rubbish.
The whole strauss kahn thing... and he's jsut in the news cause it's high profile. How many business men expect these perks on business trips!! (Hooters, lap dancers, hookers, hotel maids... All valid standard business practises.)
The porn industry - good god... Do you not see any problem there??? Do you not see that so much that should be fringe is mainstream?
The objectification all over the telly, the magazines, movies, sports. Where are the english womens football, hockey, rugby, cricket teams??? Nope, only ones I have seen are lining the F1 and wags.
Start with the baby gros that say 'wannabe wag' and go all the way to dv and rape - where you are not even allowed to think that you have been raped/dv'ed. (he's normally very nice, you know - I just handled him badly)

I came here and thought there were solutions to be had. You know, you guys have hacked it. We'll get there too!! But no. You haven't hacked it. God knows when we'll get there cause we're 50 steps behind you and you certainly haven't got there yet!

2 women a week - die from dv in the UK. Does it not shock you?
It sure as hell shocks me

OP - Have just been reading your website. Thank you for this. It is really important to document stuff like this that just goes under the radar of some people or is so easily dismissed. Thank you - a really important contribution.

And i know it can't be easy, but try and ignore the hateful comments. It is because your website is so powerful that you are being targetted by these morons.

it is impossible for any normal man to interact in a relaxed manner with a woman and not be sexist according to some women's definition of being sexist.

That's just an odd viewpoint, unless your "some women" refers to some tiny minorities with serious social problems ... there'd be no point in referring to them, so I'm going to assume you meant - er, feminists.

All any normal man needs to do, to interact in a relaxed manner with a woman and not be sexist, is interact with her as a person and not as an object representative of her sex. It ain't that hard Most women, and a fair few men, manage to interact with both women and men in a non-sexist, relaxed manner.

Trying to head off possible detailed criticisms of that statement: I'm talking about everyday, person-to-person interactions. Not the silent, patriarchal underpinnings of our societies. It's quite possible to eradicate the stuff on Laura's website before fixing the other stuff - and doing so will help with the other. Direct comparison with racism, in fact: the underlying prejudice still exists, but the daily hurdles have been diminished.

Startail I would just like to ask (for when you next pop in): if you do believe in the feminist cause so deeply, what are you doing about it? Or do you think you're somehow showing more integrity in not taking any action yourself but dismissing the efforts of someone like Laura because you don't believe that her actions are important? Cynicism's a great excuse.

It's not an either/or. One cn be concerned about 'everyday sexism' and the other problems around the world. There's enough time for both. Unless you spend it all posting on MN that is

Let me ask you something, startail... how will we get women in positions of real power in the West, positions where actual, world-changing policy takes place to improve the lives of women in the developing world, if we don't break down the sexist minutiae of our 'privileged' society? Women here in the West may be beaten down with far smaller and less violent sticks then women elsewhere, but don't doubt for a second that we are just as systematically beaten down here as anywhere else. It's just disguised better here.

Laura your website is a thing of beauty. Thank you for putting it together. You may have been targeted by idiots, but from some of the posts on there from men, you've opened a lot of eyes and effected some real change. You're amazing.

Actually I think it is impossible for any normal man to interact in a relaxed manner with a woman and not be sexist according to some women's definition of being sexist.

Now I am going to take my undeniably old fashioned sexist DH (he is unfixable, but I do try) to bed.

Its funny as some of my friends tell me I should be grateful (!!!) that I am born into a country that does not condone female circumcision, abuse, rape and so on...And I say - Hell no!! Why should I be grateful that men treat me like a human being??!!

Every single example of men treating women as less than human beings SHOULD be reported!!!!

I do not mean to imply that Startail doesn't take sexism seriously. Her post speaks for itself.

I call myself a feminist, but can't always get upset over smaller remarks in my every day life. Partly that's cowardice, for sometimes I fear it may do more harm than good in other ways (working relationship for example), partly is realism that I am unlikely to change someone's attitude there and then. Depending on the situation/person I challenge such remarks.

This does not mean however that I don't value the effort of other, braver people! It IS much needed!

Startrail -- so women should put up with sexism, so that men don't ever have to feel nervous or be provoked into nastiness?

If men are being forced to think about whether they are being offensive, that's a good thing. That's how things change!

It's actually not that hard to not be sexist. And hey then you never have to be nervous talking to women again.

What a brilliant idea for a website :) I'm sorry you've been targeted by some small-minded idiots.

It's a defense mechanism, isn't it, to say that name calling isn't so bad, because it could be so much worse. It keeps one happy enough with our lot.

Startail says she's too much of a cynisist too worry about the smaller issues. She's picking her battles, as are perhaps a great number of those who don't take every day sexism seriously.

Fair enough, but I'm glad that there are people who want to take on the smaller but perhaps far more fundamental attitudes! If sexism/racism/homophobia etc is to be truly unacceptable, and not just in a pc kind of way, "small" and big issues have to be recognised!

Look people who troll and post obscenities on feminist or any other web site operating in good faith are scum. I think we all agree on that.

All I'm trying, not very eruditely, to say is where some modern feminists draw the line between what is sexist enough to worry about and what isn't differently to society in general.

Ordinary men feel nervous of interacting with women less they step over some invisible ever shifting line.

I feel alienated from the feminist cause, which I believe in very deeply, because I'm not offended by things I'm told I should be.

If you make people feel nervous and tell them what to think you will provoke a reaction. In people with a chip on their shoulders that can be a very nasty reaction.

You can change what people do fairly easily, it takes generations to change what they think.

Sometimes I think modern feminism in the West is trying to achieve perfection and leaving most of the world and many of it's own women behind.

Oh right, Basil, sorry I didn't realise!

What a relief actually, I mean it's so hard being annoyed about more than one thing at a time.

You can compare sexism with racism. You wouldn't be allowed to say anything racist these days and get away with it. And what a good thing that is!

So why should you just brush off sexist comments? What world do we want for our daughters?

And what is radical feminism? Please define. As human beings, we just want to be respected and feel valued, regardless of our race, gender, religion, size, physical appearance, sexual orientation etc etc

I can't believe not just men, but also women are out there endorsing sexist comments and behaviour. How sad!

Yes, the thing is, if there were no such thing as sexism, becasue we'd won the battle for equal pay and men had stopped raping and beating us and not being punished for that, we would have won the battle to be considered equal, full human beings. And there would be no cat calling and objectification in the street, because it would simply be demented behaviour, there would be no systematic background of sexism behind it.