I didn't know the hate was SO bad

Xenia, isn't there a legal difference between saying women are to thick to become surgeons and threatening to rape/kill a woman? Freedom of speech certainly applies to the first, but what about the second?

Startail - I know we all have different views of labels. But IMO your views are not moderate. They always seem to be of the, we should only challenge the more extreme sexism, view.

My use of extreme was not meant to be an insult. I am sorry if it was seen as one.

Extreme is an insult in politics. It implies people who should not be taken seriously and are outwith the normal political process.

Radical feminists address fundamentals of male power in particular men's violence twoards and mistreatment of us. That isn't an extreme act, that's a sensible act.

Laura: thanks for your site. I love it and am sorry that you've had to deal with so many fuckwits. I think it's best just to ignore them here and don't give them the space to peddle their ignorant views. If there is a silver lining to this it is that women are finally beginning to realise that we don't have it all and personal choice has not and does not bring liberation. This realisation is powerful. Feminism is on the rise [busmile] and this brings out the nutters. But we are stronger, cleverer and, in this at least, have the law on our side.

It may not be in your opinion, Garlic, but when it's used by MRA's to discredit us, we don't really want the association. What's so extreme about wanting full equality, btw?

Changing laws is a short term fix. The radical solution is complete overthrow of illegitimate male power. Getting us the vote but only within the same male dominated, male created power structure isn't a radical act, although it was an important step along the path to women's rights.

You keep say you're a radical feminist (for some reason). If you are you should be well aware of this.

Trophy, extreme is NOT an insult. I've said that, as have at least 2 others.

Changing laws isn't radical - really, Nyac? What is, then? Was suffrage not radical?

Sorry folks Sanjeeves right,
Face value is all there is to my posts, I'm a very dull, long term SAHM.
I have been and never will be politically active.
All I wish is that my two DDs grow up in a world where they are treated with respect and equality.

Not a world where the two extremes shout at each other and the rest of us switch off and get on with our lives.

We owe the brave pioneers of feminism more than that, we owe our children more than that.

To preach moderation doesn't mean you condone DV, rape or sexual abuse. To suggest it does would be insulting if it wasn't so silly.

I've tried to suggest a moderate view on this board before and should have known it's a waste of time.

Extreme is sometimes right. If you're in Saudi and you think women should be allowed to drive or vote you might be "extreme" but you might be morally right. Extreme isn't always bad. If you're with a group of people who want all the opposite sex dead that might be extreme and morally wrong.

As fo posting I really really do think that we must as women guard feredom of speech to the death. I am very very unhappy about many recent laws which can see people jailed for tweets. Talk and speech should be free. Of course a site or blog can remove or moderate any post it wishes but we must ensure people can write what they like even if it's awful to women, blacks, men or whatever. That freedom of expression will be taken from us unless we let it be expressed. I would like us all to feel we would die to support the right of men to say women are too thick to be surgeons or to deny the holocaust even though I abhor and would disagree with those views.

I have never had abuse online that I couldn't handle. We also need to ensure we bring up girls who are tough and strong and know that sticks and stones can hurt their bones but words will never hurt them. We need strength and robustness and I am not sure all little girls are being brought up with that. We need to toughen them up somehow, remove the pink and girl stuff and make them strong internally and externally.

That does not mean that I in any way condone abusive comments by men or women on line or anywhere but I do think there is a huge difference between liberatrian feminists and those who want things to be banned all the time.

The only extremism I see on MN, Garlic, is from the trolls that occasionally visit. If you're referring to other members of FWR as "extreme", please stop. It discredits us.

thanks for helping sanjeev.

I thought I had answered Basil. Do you want me to try again, or will that just detract from Laura's issues (which I tried to help with in my first post)? Because I don't want to do that.

I'd say shouting at women in the street or sexually harassing or sexually assaulting us was the extreme behaviour.

Depends who you mean by "the rest of us" Trophy

I'm not taking sides!

Anyway sorry as this isn't the point of the thread. It just seemed erroneous. I'll disengage now.

whist I'd expect debate,cantankerous exchange etc
threats of rape,violence.blimey that's appalling
quite shocking

Radical feminism seeks to overthrow the whole structure of male supremacy by ending male violence against women and girls - rape, domestic violence, prostitution, pornography, forced marriage, sexual assault, sexual harassment, child sexual abuse and so on.

nothing very radical about being sexist/misogynistic imo either. but hey we all get to self label i guess.

Changing laws isn't radical GB, it's liberal feminism. Do you think maybe that's why you've been a bit confused about being a radical feminist.?

I don't see how what you wrote Sanjeev was answering Basil's questions as she didn't ask you where you thought startail stood politically. She asked you whether startail was wrong in her view of men.

nothing extreme about not being sexist/misogynistic imho.

Nyac, forgive me ... I reckon it's always worth doing 101s when asked.

frustrated by the staus quo after early gains for equality in some areas of society - hah, that's me!

having identified the patriarchy's overarching control, decided that something had to be done - not sequential to the above. We identified that and attacked the roots (radicalism) by winning structural changes to our laws & economy.

Sadly, the hoped-for ripple effect isn't happening much. We need to throw in some more rocks!