Something that's been bothering me

JosephineB posted the following link on the 'heterosexual relationships' thread. Great piece of writing and I feel it has quite a lot of relevance here. It may help to explain why some feminists are leery of criticising the behaviour of women we have never met.

And it is not because we think they don't bear any responsibility for their actions.

www.shakesville.com/2009/08/terrible-bargain-we-have-regretfully.html

I think MN can give the impression that the patriarchy is responsible for all of women's actions. May be the posters mean the patriarchy explains the actions, rather than takes away the woman's responsibility but that's not always obvious to me.

I reckon the OP's DH is probably awesome and gawjus and they all have a crush on him. All of them. There is no other logical explanation for a whole load of women asking him to do ridiculously simple things in a flirty breathy manner surely?

I keep feeling that texts are telling me that women don't bear any responsibility for their actions because we live in a patriarchy.

What have you been reading?! That is just a silly thing to say. Feminist analysis does not say that women do not bear any responsibility for their actions - the analysis is a bit more complex than that.

"A 'little girl' voice is a high voice, right? Ie., a voice that sounds very different from a deep man's voice?"

Nope, a "little girl voice" is not just simply a high voice, it's a voice which is deliberately put on - I can't believe you've never encountered anyone doing that. .

There's a difference between having naturally a high voice and deliberately changing pitch, tone and other features of your speech.

I've just read this thread with my jaw on the floor.

Are we all talking about the same thing? A 'little girl' voice is a high voice, right? Ie., a voice that sounds very different from a deep man's voice? And we're saying ... as feminists ... that we think this is somehow bad, or not likely to be true of many women?

Um ... some women do have high voices. I know women who deliberately drop their voices to sound more serious. I know women who have been told to do this, or taught to do this, as a technique for public speaking. I am really, really shocked that the first response to the OP is not: and what is wrong with having a high, breathy voice? We're women: most of us have higher voices than most men. And that's fine!

I've got a quiet girly voice. I feel I'm letting the side down now. It isn't put on, it automatically comes out that way, all the time, to everyone!
:(

I can open a zip file though.
:)

To those posters who don't believe the OP's husband - why do you think he would lie to his wife? That is a pretty rotten thing for him to do just to 'prove' a minor point (if that is his intent).

SQ - I've written flow charts with little drawings, and trying hard to be not patronising, for people in the past because I was sick of doing things for them. They still didn't get it or pretended not to.

I've had this taped to my screen once (and I'm not overly techy even, it's quite weird that people tend to think I'm good at that kind of stuff)

Now pretending to be dim in order to Teflon off work is not something only women do. And playing the "I'm just a dim ickle woman" is only one technique, and isn't always employed, but some do do that.

I didn't realise that extracting a zip file takes any sort of skill, but I've also once worked with someone who did his calculations on a calculator before typing them into a spreadsheet, so nothing is impossible.

I find it pretty hard to believe that there is a workplace (publishing or otherwise) where noticeable numbers of women are refusing to learn basic IT skills that are essential for their role, instead preferring to go and flirt with OPs DH to get him to do it.

I mean presumably they are fairly busy and there comes a point where doing it themselves in 2 ticks would be better than having to cajole someone else into doing it for them
The suggestion being I guess that the women would rather go and flirt with OPs DH than learn how to do something pretty basic themselves
Implication being OPs DH is irresistible, and the women are all a worrying combination of unambitious, dim, lazy and unskilled.

I still think OPs DH is embellishing here somewhat.
Someone asks me to open a zip file for them more than once (twice at a push) and I write the instructions down and email them.

I'm small, I ask for help if I can't reach something and a taller colleague is nearby.
It's either that or go and fetch a stepladder and I am a lazy feminist.

because when you use a "little girl" voice, it makes you sound like an absolute pillock

I don't think there is any argument with that

There's nothing wrong with asking for help, btw, no matter whether it's help with lifting things or help with techie stuff.

Just don't make it out that you need help because you're a woman, but you need help because you can't do it on your own, or just need some training so you can learn to do it on your own. (Talking of which, is anyone here any good at writing macros?)

But why do people associate "little girl" voices with lack of competence? Where does that come from?

Auntie, I'm no good at any of those things, I just feel a bit crappy asking for help when otherwise I look fit and capable. I do tend to just ask someone near by, and if it's suitable I say I've got a bad back.

I would hate for someone to think typical woman because of that, but I suspect that some people will think that

Basil, sometimes it's like you say, sometimes it's not. I've nothing against short skirts and low cut tops themselves, and even wear them myself sometimes. But just because parading is not the universal behaviour of all women who wear short skirts and low cut tops, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The same way that little girl voices are not default behaviour of women, it doesn't mean neccessarily that OP's husband is imagining things. Personally I find the story quite plausible.

Saying that women never behave like that on purpose is as daft as saying that they always do.

I think sometimes when people talk about women "parading" their bodies, they just mean that they're wearing a low-ish cut top or a mini skirt. In most workplaces, either of those items is perfectly OK and hte women aren't "parading" they're just wearing them.

You ask for help - but in an adult way, explaining that you have a specific arm weakness, and exhibiting none of the following:

• simpering
• little girl voice
• breathiness
• cleavage-waving
• eyelash fluttering

Withou knowing the dh we can't really tell if it's a problem of his perception or where he works.

What I find difficult is that I just don't have very strong arms. Mainly due to a couple of injuries rather than any feeble lack of attempt.

So I do need to ask for help, and I feel a bit pathetic about that, but what else can I do?

It was, SQ, I left.

You get your posts deleted for saying that Anyfucker. Or at least I did.

I still don't believe him either mind you.

Yikes that sounds like an unpleasant workplace.

one or two women have "girly, breathless" voices

OP's H is implying there is a whole raft of 'em at his workplace

I don't believe him

SardineQueen - might well be to do with industries.
The occasion I'm thinking of was in a quite sexist setting (think office walls adorned with nudy calendars which were christmas gifts from suppliers, and being shot down by other women for complaining about them), and she definitely did try and shove her tits into senior management's faces at any given opportunity. She didn't do it to the non-senior male staff.

I have met women who liked to wear revealing clothes etc obviously, but I have never had the sense that they were "parading" for specific people, more that they just liked to dress that way and be noticed generally.

I haven't encountered it, maybe that is to do with the industries that I have worked in.