Something that's been bothering me

My brother left Scotland over 20yrs ago so has mainly lost his accent, however, he uses a Jockney accent when he is giving someone a bollocking.

others on here said they'd never see a woman go breathy voiced and girly to ask for technical help, you've never seen a man go mockney matey with a mechanic

they do change their voices - they effect a mockney accent and say mate a lot.

Just William ?

S/he is - I just couldn't think of another famous schoolboy!

wee Jimmy Krankie is a woman < couldn't resist >

Basil said 'when men use the word mate five times on a row, no-one accuses them of using their sexuality, or their special male bonding resource, to get ahead. they just think they're being people'.

Agreed But if they changed their voice to sound like Jimmy Krankie when saying it, they would be mocked mercilessly (at least where I work).

when men use the word mate five times on a row, no-one accuses them of using their sexuality, or their special male bonding resource, to get ahead. they just think they're being people

SAF, it's interesting that the slant put on this has all been 'he comes home and tells me all this stuff', as though telling tales. What the OP said is that she has been doing a lot of reading herself, and then talking with hubby. Which, one could take as meaning she has read feminist literature, then instigated a conversation with him about her findings. Perhaps he then responded to a particular subject she had raised.

We don't know this for sure. But it is a possibility. However, it seems more popular here to come down on the side of him somehow being at fault.

The idea of men acting similarly childish and putting on a small boy's voice is something I have never encountered. Not saying it doesn't happen, but I can far more readily picture a man ploughing blindly on through a task until he ends up in a complete muddle, and then losing his rag and blaming the system/tool/dog. That happens in our place a lot. The older guys also play the 'I'm too old to learn this IT crap' card all the time too, and have few qualms about asking for help with the same task over and over again. They show no shame

I think there was a pretty cynical attempt to do exactly that on this thread Beachcomber. Very sadly.

I don't think its rude to point it out and to point out that politics and propaganda do not exist separately. Ever.

Feminism is political.

Yes, that's about entrenched, institutionalised sexism within the culture of many work places and professions. Although there may be official policies and procedures, employees get their cues on how to behave from others, observing and learning about "how things are done." Although that sort of things isn't just down to managers, they have a really critical role to play in setting the "tone" of a workplace or team, and in addressing behaviour that is sexist (or marginalises people for other reasons, like bullying, racism, etc.)

Any experiences of tackling the "status quo" and changing it? I can think of someone I know in a professional capacity who works for a local authority. Her predecessor was an incompetent pillock in general and a sexist pillock specifically. She's having to sort out a godawful mess left behind by him, but even though it's bloody hard work for her team doing that, you can almost feel the sense of relief that they now feel free to be themselves, to do what they are capable of and know needs to be done rather than doing "what the boss expects."

That's certainly similar to my experience working in a male dominated industry as a young woman Beachcomber.

Well he's been in the same job for about 12 years and all that time I have done freelance stuff for the company. I also do interpretation for them when they invite clients to the agency for drinkies and buttering up, so I'm there a fair bit.

He is one of two men in a company where all the other members of staff are women. They often have students come and do projects and stuff with them so there are quite a lot of young women who come and go (female dominated area).

I have seen women act in a feminine way with both DH and his boss (the only men in the company and the people who have the most power in the company, despite it being a female dominated area). I don't think for a second it is because my DH is an irresistible specimen of gawjus manhood, and neither does he. We think it is because women are taught to behave like this, especially around men who can influence their careers. Some do it, some don't. Lots don't but enough do that I suggested DH talk to his boss about what sort of atmosphere is created in the company for the women.

beach young women in particular will flirt with (your DH) cos he is in charge of them and can make a difference to their careers and they have been taught from birth that this is how they should interact with men.

and you see these multiple young women doing this with your DH? are you sure because that sounds very odd.

HmmThinkingAbout I've looked at your propaganda link and TBH I find it very rude that you are comparing women chewing the feminist fat on a discussion board and giving their personal opinions to propaganda.

I'm not too clear on why you are doing that? Is it just a way of personally attacking by link in the way we had someone personally attack by quote the other day?

Propaganda is a political tool used to manipulate and control people in an organised and cynical way. Quite an accusation to make

And to not misrepresent my DH, he didn't come and tell me about these women. I go to his office sometimes because I do translation work for his company and I have seen it happen.

Something else we talked about is how DH's boss, the company owner, sort of likes having young pretty things around the office, as do some of the clients (who are mostly male) - we reckoned that was probably where the behaviour came from.

SAF - i work in a technical role & see it a bit differently than you: i see men 'having' to pretend they know what they are talking about when they clearly dont. Particularly talking with me, a women.

they appear to believe they need to be more masculine than they are (bearing in mind their 'masculine strength' is understanding techology.

i just want people at work to be honest about what they know and dont know. anyone else is a PITA.

The thing to be pissed off with when women use their 'feminine wiles' to get along is patriarchy.

overuse of the word "mate" in that context is ingratiating and submissive too, I think

my DH often says when faced with similar "he isn't my mate, so what is he on about ? "

is that just me who has noticed that by the way? whereas women might get girly and roll on their tummy that way men do the stunningly obvious (from an 'outsiders' perspective) matey use of the word 'mate' five times per sentence for the same effect.

the easy response is to say 'it is absolutely FINE to ask me for help, you don't have to worry about it just tell me what your problem is and i will work through it with you and teach you how to deal with it in future'. i'm sure they would then approach asking him for help far more directly and confidently. if however he responds with irritation then this will exacerbate the problem imo as they will be more anxious about asking for help and therefore display yet more apologetic behaviour/submissive signals next time.

this behaviour does not have to be sexual or in any way about sex - it may be womens equivalent to over using the word "mate" when having to complain about something to the mechanic all we know.

Folks, this is the internet. It's a two dimensional means of communication. We only see what's on the screen. We might know a bit about individual posters if they have stuff in their profiles or if we remember things they've posted before. But, that's it, no inflection, no expressions, no tone of voice, no gestures, no chance to genuinely check out whether we've been understood correctly, or if we've misunderstood someone else.

So some here feel others have been too harsh and personal in their responses to the OP based on the anecdote she chose to introduce the discussion. Others think that on a feminist board, members have the right to call out where they see examples of entitled, sexist attitudes or behaviour in whatever way they choose. It's also worth remembering that one doesn't have to intend to hurt, undermine or marginalise another person for them to feel that's what's happening. None of us know what's going on for the person on the other side of the screen. Sometimes, I think we need to cut each other a bit of slack. I mean that all ways round.

And sort of linked to that, Beachcomber, there was a comment you added up thread, "We try to throw off the notion that women should always be nicey nicey and caring and concerned about everyone and everything." I see where that comes from - recognising the expectation within patriarchy of how women are supposed to engage with others and actively refusing to comply with that expectation.

However, there's also the argument that being forthright, blunt and harsh is actually "using the master's tools," (to badly paraphrase Audre Lorde,) rather than forging a way of communicating that is clear and direct but not likely to be experienced as dismissive or patronising.

I much prefer the latter myself.

I often use analogies about racism to explain a point about feminism and why we sometimes react the way we do to stuff.

I think comparisons between divisive behaviour - as in NI are equally applicable. It creates more problems than it solves. Solving problems is about cooperation and bridge building to understand the other group. Its not about perpetuating myths and stereotypes. Its not about demonising someone into submission of your point of view. You can not win hearts and minds in that way and if you don't understand that, you will have a very real problem in changing society and causing revolutionary change.

propaganda are akin to accusing people of being trolls
No its not. Its pointing out that there is very much a political thing going on here, and the use of propaganda is very widespread in order to get a certain message across. Its used in mainstream politics and debate. Having a good understanding of how it works and how it is being used here helps people who are struggling to get across a point in the face of such tactics to have a chance to actually be able to express their views on an equal playing field.

People are very free to go and look at the link I put and judge for themselves if the cap fits and whether it will help them.

I'm just calling what I see. And that is what I am seeing.

sanjeev i think it would be disingenuous to pretend that a man coming home and telling his wife about all the women who go all breathless and helpless around him doesn't at least raise an eyebrow in the mind.

if i said now oh all the men at x go all breathless and helpless around me what would you think realistically?

Anyway referring back to the OP, I'd like those who were very critical of the DH to answer what a man put in a position, where a woman is trying to manipulate a situation with her sexuality, should do? Should he make others aware its happening to try and stop it? (Which could include having a moan to his wife) Should he indulge it by simply ignoring it as otherwise he's seeing them in a sexist way? Should just shut up and not say anything to anyone? Should he be going around having a go at male colleagues over it? Is he really actively supporting the patriarchy in this situation?

I once asked my DH this question. I know that in his work, young women in particular will flirt with him cos he is in charge of them and can make a difference to their careers and they have been taught from birth that this is how they should interact with men.

He sat and thought about it for a while and then said 'reflect on my own unearned privilege and try not to be a dick'.