Something that's been bothering me

I work in an industry where all the staff are female. The two directors comprise one man, one woman. I was given full pay maternity leave, automatic flexible working, and given a great deal of understanding and support to manage work with being a parent. As an aside, the male director was a very hands-on father.

I think that says quite a lot.

I worked in advertising. Very young industry.

Sexist as shite. Hence the shitty ads.

I also worked in TV. again, young industry.

Got made redundant for being pregnant.

Nope, seems that old fashioned sexism is just as likely to present in young industries as it is in old ones. Wherever there are men, there is sexism, it seems...

Of course some women act like this & some of us do to a degree even though we don't want to.

I was on a graduate IT scheme quite a few years back. Should've known what was coming when I turned up and they had a badge already made up with the male version of my given name...

My boss was a toxic mysoginyst - and a woman.

I learned that softly softly approach was best, to manipulate behind the scenes, accept not receiving the public plaudits and save email evidence instead. To speak softly and be well-groomed at all times (not cleavage etc. but a higher standard was definitely expected of the few female grads).

I also got out quickly, but some behaviours are hard to unlearn.

Fortunately my new boss (a man) expects me to sound powerful and in control (but not bossy) and can see the difference.

Now what to do about the fact I'm petite, still youngish, big of bust & sound like a teenage girl...I dunno. That's not learned - that just is. If I try to sound more like the guys am I doing myself -and feminism- any more of a service ?

(Doesn't mean I pretend I'm daft though, unless trying to get someone to do a job they ought to already be doing, because sometimes in my job, 'can do'='will do for now ad infinitem'. My fellow (males) programme managers are also known to adopt this approach).

Sanjeev - I'm not sure whether the IT industry is any more or less sexist than any other industry, as for many things, there's an xkcd for that

indeed workplace and co levies vary enormously
that's why big sweeping statements don't apply for all

Sanjeev - i think the culture of a company is set by the leadership & can vary widely within an industry.

anecdote isn't data,it is a subjective account though
and frankly all threads are subjective and uncorroborated account.we don't ask posters to give demonstrable evidence prior to posting

whole point of online blether is the words on the screen and how we form a response

Cheers esperance, I will have a look.

I am off out now. I will look in again tomorrow. I am not ignoring people. Can people please see my above point though - I was asking a question.

Again, I was asking a question in my first post - do people think that newer industries such as IT are more progressive, less sexist environments? It was a question, not an unalterable opinion. A question.

There was an IT employment thread on MN several weeks ago, and many women posters felt valued and judged by their abilities rather than their sex. It was pretty positive. That is all I was trying to bring to the discussion. And if people think that my own experiences are atypical, then I can accept that.

Sanjeev,

An anecdote does not equal data.

The facts are that as computing/information technology has expanded in size and influence over the last 20 years the proportion of female participation has actually decreased, not increased.

Here is a report on this problem from the US-based National Center for Women in Technology.

www.ncwit.org/pdf/NCWIT_TheFacts_rev2010.pdf

There are numerous other reports along these lines from many countries. I am sure you can find them but this might be a place for you to start.

Sanjeev you criticised nyac for relying on personal experience when she provided stats and links. I don't care whether you said in your experience or not. You are still trying to use it to counter stats and reports. Maybe your workplace is some oasis of gender equality that exists in a bubble. I doubt it, and I don't think you're very well placed to judge that at all. Someone who likes to minimise women's experiences usually isn't.

And if you really can't work out the difference between you saying dick waving and nyac saying fucking, you really might need to do some thinking.

problem is that 'backwater' sounds like a rare, oddity, way off on the borders somewhere whereas in fact these environments are fairly standard.

you referred to me and my experiences and i can assure you they are not rare or exceptional and you don't have to go live on the moors or something to experience them..

Partly marking ny place here.

I work in an IT company as a business analyst. I know that in my appraisal next month I am going to be told (again) I am overbearing and strident. I am deeply pissed off by this as I have seriously analysed my behaviour and know that if I did exactly the same thing and also had a penis, I would just be seen as knowledgeable and able to put my point across.

Thing is, because I am knowledgeable and able to pit my point across they need me

no nyac
some men are sexist,some women are
it's not a given that a man will be sexist in every arena. now that may suit your particular world view,but it's not a factual given

Alice, in my earlier post I said 'in my limited experience'. I was quite up front. I put out my theory as a question, if you would look again. I hoped to elicit responses from other posters in the IT industry. Now I am being pilloried for it.

How come Nyac can say fucking, and I can't say dick-waving? I will refrain from further use of it though, if it upsets people.

Tilly, you said 'i took an employer to court for not taking my complaints about my filthy boss seriously. it was dreadful at the time - noone spoke to me at work for 3 months, but both men & women in my life got me through it.'

How would you describe this place. An oasis of enlightenment? By backwater, I meant a place with regressive attitudes and prejudice.

' I was on a hi tech trading floor with techniques and equipment that you could probably only have dreamt of back then.' And yet you don't know me, you don't know what I do. If I started going on about having worked on supercomputers and massively parallel computing hardware, I might just be dismissed as some supergeek, so I wont bother.

Having a computer system does not make a company progressive in it's attitudes. If they discriminate on any basis - sex, race, disability - then they are displaying a backwater attitude. That was my original point.

I have seen, time and again, women promoted beyond me due to their ability, not because they flash their tits or put on a silly voice. I get the impression that this somehow disappoints you, but for me it is a sign of progression and improvement, however isolated.

sanjeev - do i understand you think i have worked in a backwater?

Sanjeev, nyac provided stats and a link to a report highlighting the issue. You in the other hand gave an example of where you work. So if anyone is making it about themselves it is you.

And your 'dick waving' accusation is hugely inappropriate considering where you are.

You called it a backwater. It wasn't. That's a stupid thing to say. You also have no evidence that Tilly's or SAF's workplaces were backwaters either.

These aren't backwater attititudes - that's the bit you're missing. Men display them everywhere, including hi tech industries like computing or the internet. For example Facebook was invented by a giant misogynist, whose initial aim for it was to rate women's attractiveness. You've displayed sexism here too on this board, with your attempts to minimise sexism or distract from it with your supposedly exceptional workplace.

As for the dick-waving insult. Do you really think you can only be challenged by a penis or someone pretending to have one? Look again. Just another example of misogyny on this thread though.

I am afraid, Nyac, that I am not the OP, and you cannot frighten me away from a discussion with bad language, dismissive comments and aggressive posturing. I am not here to bully people off the board. Nor will I indulge in dick-waving about who has worked with the most advanced computer systems.

Investment banking and extending credit to merchants is an ancient practice. IT companies are a 20th century innovation. That was my point. And as I said, other posters appear to have worked in companies with backwater attitudes. I named two of them. Or is this discussion purely about you?

Anyway even if your exceptional workplace does exist, so what? The fact is that the vast majority of workplaces are still extremely sexist and male dominated with men getting the rewards and positions of power and women being exploited at the middle or lower levels.

But apparently it's women's self defeating behaviour that causes this, not men's sexist behaviour.

I'd prefer to hear from the women you work with Sanjeev.

Not taking any bloke's word about the lack of sexism in his workplace, especially from a guy who seem determined to dismiss the actual reality of sexism and the existence of the patriarchy.