Consent - a problematic concept if ever I saw one.

Thanks for explaining, goaway. I get why it's upsetting - basically it's an upsetting topic, isn't it? Emotions are going to run high.

Can I just say one more thing? You've said again that a woman 'can still change her mind' even if her partner is 'about' to enter her. I do think it's important to be clear: she can say no after that, too, right? I think this is a hugely important point.

I think that maybe this point is related to how we think about sex, as something that's defined by the presence of a penis, which naturally leads us to think of the woman as passive. Which gets into what MacKinnon says so much more eloquently.

Entitled is the wrong word, i see that now. I am very confused by the feminist thing on here. I like to consider myself a feminist. I am sorry if i have been too sexually graphic it was never my intention to upset anyone. But i did feel upset that my partner has been likened to a rapist.

I WAS only asking the questions in my my original response, in as much as for me, i can't put a finger on where consent is given or not given. One would hope that most loving men would make sure that a woman is absolutely ready to move on to having sex before taking that for granted. Sometimes that is obvious by her actions i would have thought, maybe it isn't - a woman might be very aroused, but still not intending to have full sex, of course she is entitlted (*see i have the use of the word right now) to say NO, i said that in my first post, if he is about to enter her, she can still change her mind. I haven't disagreed with anything anyone has said, apart from my partner being able to persuade me to have sex with him.

Beachcomber - can i pick up on that point. I would imagine that if there is a Dom/sub thing going on, that consent would have been given explicitly and absolutely not taken for granted. Once consent is given to enter a scence for instance, the safe word isnt there to take away consent, but just to say thats enough. IF it were me, and i was entering into something like that, i would probalby outline what my limits are BEFORE doing anything, this is so so important for both parties. It might be that one day i would like X but the next day i might not, that is what a safe word is for. I don't practice BDSM

Ok, cross post. Thanks for apologizing.

I think where we're going wrong here is you're saying he's 'entitled' to do this stuff, and this is where I just feel sick. No-one is entitled to do anything to your body without your consent.

goaway - IMO there is a huge difference between 'persuades' 'asks' and 'is entitled'.

I'm sorry you're upset. But I'm also a bit angry now. Why do you feel it's ok to come along and upset other people with your very graphic descriptions of sex acts which, as people have explained, are at the very least disturbing and at worst, sexual assault ... and then to complain you feel bad because we say we don't like it?

I have posted quite honestly about how your descriptions made me feel, and you've not even bothered to respond to that, let alone apologize for it.

prolesworth, that comment was not directed at you. I have an interesst in BDSM but i am not going to discuss it on this thread.

I am genuinely sorry to anyone i have offended by not making myself clear, but i just cannot get my head around my DP lovingly persuading me to have sex (I am talking stroking my back, fondling my breast while im in bed and sleepy most times, kissing my neck at the kitchen sink - all lovely things to have done) being seen as him forcing himself on me, or god forbid raping me, its just so totally wrong and far away from what i am describing. I am describing what i consider to be a normal loving thing to do. As i also said, it is usually the other way around, its usually me that initiates sex. Also, i will pretend not to be interested, hes a lazy lover so if i can prolong the foreplay............

I was tempted to start at thread along the lines of "if your husband persuades you to have sex" that means he is a rapist, but i obviously wouldnt do that becaue that would be massively direspectful towards those who have been raped within a relationship. Your posts have really upset me. You clearly misunderstood my posting of rape myths. I was asking the questions, not stating the fact. I said that i totally agreed that a woman shoudlnt HAVE to say no, but she should feel ABLE to say no. That is not the same as saying if she doesnt utter the word no, she hasn't been raped.

I will stand by my post that my DPis entitled to/allowed (put a legal twist on it if you think it makes you sound better) to try and persuade me to have sex. For me, thats called foreplay, im not a sexual lightbulb, him touching me is not always going to have me ready and waiting, sometimes i take a bit of persuading, if i don't want persuading i'll make that perfectly clear too, my DP would respect that.

It's from Toward a Feminist Theory of the State, the chapter 'Rape: on coercion and consent'.

Sorry goawaybob, I didn't mean to be offputting by bandying a quote about. I haven't got the brainpower to put it into my own words so I typed it out from the book. Posting a quote was in no way meant to imply that you have to be well-read in feminist theory (I'm not well-read myself anyway!) to join in.

goaway, I have read virtually no feminist lit either and I've never studied women's rights formally at all - in fact, if anyone on here has a PhD in women's rights she is being very modest about it (I wouldn't be surprised if some posters do, but I've not seen it mentioned).

Honestly, this is not a complex or an academic question and you don't need to worry that that is the problem.

I'm really sorry you feel sickened - but, you see, so do I. Because, to me, your post sounds like a desription of the kind of relationship I'd run screaming from. I am not just being metaphorical when I say it gives me the shivers. The thought of someone feeling 'entitled' to pester for sex makes me cringe.

I expect it's not nice to hear that this is how your post makes someone else feel, because I hear you saying you love this man ... but it is how I feel. I do have the right to say that, you know. I wouldn't choose to offer an opinion on someone else's marriage, but when it's put where I can read about it, well, yes, I will offer my opinions.

So hang on then, just because im not read up on feminist literature or i don't have a PhD in women's rights i am not entitled to post my annecdotaal thoughts?

I'll just stick to posting in relationships with the rest of the plebs! I am sorry but i am entitled to my opinion. I am as against rape of any sort and to suggest taht i am defending it is deeply offensive and i actually feel quite sickened.

The thouht of my loving partner, cheekily, lovingly, persuading me to have sex being thought of as rape is disgusting.

'If my partner wants sex, but i don't at that particular time, he is not entitled to try and persude me? No, stroking, not massage, no nothing? and my stating that makes me malicious and unkind? Really? I LIKE being persuaded to have sex.'

That's what you said, goaway. And the answer is still no, he is not 'entitled' to any of this. It is your body.

As a wider point I think the terminology here that's being used - the term 'entitled' is part of that same problem of how male-female sexual relationships are understood. It's still the language of written contracts, as if women can't speak up for themselves. Marriage used to be a contract that was legalised by a man having sex with a woman - her body is the object on which that contract is effected, and the marriage isn't fully binding until it's consummated. I know now we have moved beyond that but I think the shadows of that old idea are still behind a lot of our assumptions.