Bullying in the workplace: a realtime example

miloben that's a horrible story :(

Totally agree that while the rest was awful, you can't know that him trying to kiss her was attempted sexual assault, not from the brief description she gave of it. I've leaned in for a kiss with a guy I was dancing with and he backed off, and vice versa has also happened to me. It's easy to misread signals. Leaping to that big accusation from little information really detracts from the rest of the response.

Do we need witnessed verbal specific permission as a minimum before attempting a first kiss now? From both people involved or just the man?

Take it from me it's alienating because it's an extremist stance and makes the reader wonder how much the rest of the article is too. I have NEVER considered an attempted kiss at a work party could be assault. Forced kiss yes, but nobody claimed it was forced upon her!

SQ I completely agree with your 14:35:45 post.

Surely EFA, It's just a few peoples opinion on what is and what isn't assault. I really don't understand how having a different or, some might say, more radical POV on a small point from the email exchange can be seen as alienating.

That was at SQ btw .

I would count myself as a feminist and have experienced bullying myself in the workplace. I am predisposed favourably towards bidisha's articles and yet this assault claim alienated even me

Yup, bidisha's thread and bidisha's opening analysis is sexual assault. I think this will alienate many people from the rest of the article.

I guess Bidisha would be the best person to ask then!

I would think it's an attempted kiss, rather than an attempted sexual assault.

I wonder if Bidisha is around here anywhere

Bidisha?

Yes by Bidisha, not by the woman. So it isn't detracting from her issues at all. She never described it as that. Therefore she wouldn't be describing it as that in her meeting with the head. So how is it detracting?

I'm going to back out now because I am continuing a debate about something I don't really have that strong an opinion on. I thought it was interesting that people had differing views on it and why. But I don't thnk it detracts from her case.

No it was identified as an attempted sexual assault in the original piece which is why fattyacid queried it.

Why EFA? Discussng this man's entitlement to try and kiss this women hasn't detracted from the issue. It has shown why he carried on to bully her. She didn't describe it as sexual assault btw and you brought it into the debate.

I agree with SardineQueen
Trying to kiss someone at an office party isn't assault unless you continue to force a kiss after your advance has clearly been rejected

Claiming sexual assault over this detracts massively from the rest imo

Some years ago I went to England to teach in a High School. There were two other male teachers in my department, and they, along with the head, made my life a living hell. I only lasted a year before I packed up and came home (N. Ireland). One of them would send pupils back into my classroom after I asked them to stand outside the door for bad behaviour, he made up false statements, and the other stalked me around the town and asked a sixth form pupil to SPY on me, can you believe!! The head was utterly evil - he hired his wife and children to work in the school and his own secretary had a nervous breakdown. She pinned it on him. Until now, I hadn't thought of it as sexism...I thought I had just met three really wicked men, who together were a match made in hell. I tell you, give me female bosses ANY day!!

I left teaching as a result, which makes me sad sometimes.

He wasn't bullying her before she rejected him though.

The rejection seems to be the reason for the bullying.

What a wanker.

As an aside, it really pisses me off that so many men take simply being friendly as a come-on.

I think in the context of the bullying behaviour from this man in the workplace, the attempted kiss without invitation was just an extension of the same.

It's just another attempt to put the uppity woman in her place by shafting her literally as well as figuratively.

Well the bullying and the other behaviour is appalling.

i don't think you can say it is a sexual assault because of his subsequent appalling behaviour.

I read it as - they got on really well - he tried to kiss her at a work party - she said no - he left.

His behaviour since has been appalling - he is punishing her for rejecting him I mean this is a grown man not a 15yo. Mind you they learn these patterns of behaviour when they're young...

I think my post came across as a bit smug, sorry. The other thing I meant to say was there appears that this woman is slightly senior to the man, which I also think is significant. What I meant, looking at all those factors, I would not have gone for a kiss in his position, yet he felt entitled to do so. A mistaken fumble between a couple of single colleagues of equal standing in a company is much less of a problem/threat.

Poor woman. I hope the meeting went well for her.

Oh... actually what Abigail said as it is far better than my musings!

Not necessarily. If they stop/leave/apologise then no, it's probably not. It's a misread signal and a mistake. But this joker has punished her and bullied her since she refused to kiss him which I think does make it sexual assault.

I think the difference is that this woman made no sign that his advances would be welcome, he was married, she had a long term partner, yet he still thought it was a good idea. I've never tried to kiss someone who has moved away from me but I have had the opposite happen (and I am not a shrinking violet).

Surely the default should be don't kiss someone unless they give the signals (or god forbid ask them). This guy seems like he set himself up to fail so that he then had a reason to bully her. He was fine with her until she didn't give him what he wanted.

I mean, someone moves their head at you like that with their eyes boggling...

You move your head / say no / whatever

They stop / leave

Sexual assault?

OK well this is where we are going to have to agree to disagree.
Assuming that he didn't do anything to physically impede her, or continue trying to kiss her after she's told him not to, then I don't see that this classes as a criminal misdemeanour.

I spent most of my single life moving in to kiss people and having them move in to kiss me... It's what happens all the time, surely. Assuming they leave it if you pull away or ask them what they're doing (or laugh at them!), I don't really see that this is a part of human behaviour that needs to be criminalised. I honestly don't see moving in for a kiss at a party as sexual assault (although it might well be out of line / inappropriate / etc).