Does reading about male abuse affect how you see men?

Dinah but women do. All those hard-won rights, such as the vote, were achieved off the back of campaigns started by women. Not men.

And women are the oppressed group who have mounted an opposition in spite of their oppression. Men have far less oppression and yet have done less to help the women's cause.

However frustrating I find it, I do not blame women for not seeing the problem or failing to do anything about it because at least there is a reason for their passivity - millennia of institutionalised sexism and misogyny.

I really hate the attitude of boys vs girls, and men vs women that is so widely accepted and joked about. Pisses me off. I nearly always challenge it

I said that because of the attitude of hating men because they dont fight the feminist cause enough. I wondered if it extends to everyone who isnt an actual activist

Er, I'm not so emotionally involved with you that I would hate you Dinah. I doubt if anyone who has posted is.

Im not arguing for men to do nothing, but that we've all got causes we are passionate about, and a lot of people (wrongly) believe the battle has been pretty much won, and just needs a few tweaks here and there. Im not going to hate someone for not being outraged about something theyve probably never really thought about because they dont feel personally affected by it (they are) or when most women they know are perfectly happy with the status quo.
I dont spend a lot of time fighting for womens rights, or any of the other issues I think are wrong in the world today. I used to be very militant when i was younger. Im much more despondant and apathetic now. Hate me for it as much as you like, and my activism probably extends to sharing a political image on facebook now and again or searching out where i can buy a feral cheryl instead of a barbie for my daughter.
When you argue that men dont do enough, it implies that women do

I hope she's not teaching girls.

If she came out with crap like this about black kids, her suitability as a teacher would be questioned and rightly so. But if it's about girls... no problem, just insult and belittle them as much as you want.

"Accidental sexism" - yes - I've seen women as well as men do that.

Just the other day I was discussing with a fellow teacher our experience of discipline in secondary schools. I described a bad experience I'd had (in a girls' school by chance) and she came out with the usual "yeah well girls' schools are notoriously bitchy. Boys are much nicer to teach." crap. I stood my ground and explained how it had had nothing to do with gender, and she looked quite surprised that I was challenging her.

Why would she not only say something so negative about her own sex but also say it TO a woman and not expect me to react? It's because sexist assumptions are so endemic that people think it's fine to voice them in public without any comeback.

I know the discussion has moved on somewhat, but I agree with others that it is an overwhelming kind of feeling which comes up after learning a lot about the extent of male violence, and then dissapates after a while to be replaced with anger at the system and seeing how the system disadvantages men as well as women.

I no longer see every man as a threat or analyse them carefully for signs of abusiveness but it is more automatic now. I think that one thing I used to do was compartmentalise - "John's a nice guy but he has a nasty temper." "Jake is great, and funny, I wonder why he's a dick to me?" - when you suddenly realise that these men are "abusers" and the category of "abuser" is not so rare any more, it's frightening. I've kind of adjusted now, but will very quickly notice if a man is in the "sexist" "entitled/thinks he is better than everyone" or "aggressive, probably abuser" category. And a rather sad one which is "nice guy who's completely unaware of his privilege". They tend to be the "accidental" sexists. I say sad because I've never actually met a man in real life who hasn't somehow ended up in this category, at least. But at least they give me hope that there is room for change, and once you differentiate between the other levels and this one rather than seeing all men who ever say anything accidentally sexist as a threat, it's a lot easier.

It's along the same lines as saying that white people as a group have done very little to tackle racism, although some individual white people have taken action, used their relative privilege to make changes and have made a difference. The white people who have done this, who do it because of a fundamental believe in racial justice, won't be looking for rounds of applause from people of colour for doing something "good."

kmdwestyorks - that's exactly what we want and need from men, what your circle of friends did.

Dinah - sounds like you're trying to argue the case for men doing nothing to show any solidarity with women whatsoever. Why?

I remember a time in my late teens and early twenties after a few bad experiences with men when i believed that no matter how intelligent, educated, strong, wary i tried to be any man would be able to hurt me whenever he wanted and so i should avoid them at all costs.

i was angry at men and at a whole that allowed men to think of women as they did

i read through this thread with interest and wanted to put my two pennies in on how my perspectives changed and i came to terms with it

After an incident with an ex boyfriend, my female friends told me that's life, that's part of being a woman and there's no point going to the police and get over it. It was male friend who took me out and for hours and hours invested the time in helping me process the events and deciding on a next step. It was his circle of male friends who isolated the ex boyfriend, made it clear that his way of treating women was not accpetable and that there was no space in that social circle for him.

I've met some not so great men since then but I have a great dad, i have a great DP and i always go back to that period of my life when the women told me to accept it and the men told me i didn't have to and started me on a path of accepting that while there is so much inequality, individuals make a difference, good and bad.

OP, you sound like to have some great men in your life, don't be angry at the people who obviously love you, they can help you make a change if you harness all the good things they have done for you.

i think standing by and allowing abuse sounds very loaded, when in actual fact you mean just getting on with their day to day lives being normal people. Its not actually watchng someone being abused, and for the most part, youre using a very broad definition of abuse, especially when youre (i assume) talking about the UK, and a sytematic general widely accepted sort of thing, that is not only tolerated but enjoyed by many men and women, which makes it difficult to fight against sometimes. We still need awareness being raised and issues being discussed and it is still a fight that needs to be fought, but most women arent doing a lot to fight against it either

Basil, they've done a lot to promote equality with each other!

What I don't understand is when the Founding Fathers wrote all that heart rending stuff about rights and liberties it never occurred to them that they were only applying those rights to white men. Yet all of us, both men and women, are supposed to look at the US constitution, French revolution etc as fantastic milestones in the history of democracy and equality. Why is that?

Dinah if they are not perpetrators or abusers but they stand by and allow abuse, what does that make them?

In German, the term is "Mitläufer". It can't adequately be translated into English. Fellow-traveller is the most frequently used translation, but I don't want to call most men fellow-travellers with woman-haters. That implies an active choice to take that road.

I think we can expect more of the men we love, who claim to love us, than that they just stand and watch while our human rights are outraged and don't actively participate in the outrage, but don't lift a finger to change the conditions in which the outrage can take place.

Call me a princess, but I am a bit more ambitious for the men in my life.

KRITIQ - yes I agree with what you said @ 09:55:29.

I agree with Nyac. I'm aware that some people will think that this means I hate/distrust all men.

But there is a distinction between men as a group and individual men.

As a group, I'm afraid I don't have a high opinion of men when it comes to female oppression.

But I love and/or like, respect and admire plenty of men in my daily life, including my own son, various family members and friends, and my boss.

When I meet a stranger who is male, my default position is neutral friendliness on the surface with a significant amount of wariness underneath. I am looking to see if they show signs of misogyny/sexism, and to some extent I am expecting it because more often than not they do. Which isn't to say that plenty of men don't.

Yes I think you have to ask:

What have men as a group, done to promote equality with women?

Also I don't think much of men as a group miloben, given how fiercely they have fought female freedom at every step of the way and how they are still fighting it or in many cases still oppressing women. There are individual exceptions, but collectively they are pretty unimpressive on the women's rights front. It's fairly reasonable to have that reaction in my opinion.

Hillary Clinton was saying that in a speech yesterday or the day before, how male extremists always want to control women.

I think there is so much injustice all over the world and in so many areas, that its impossible for everybody to fight about everything they believe in. I certainly would not hate all men because some men abuse, anymore than i hate all women. When you hate a whole gender because of the actions of a few, then what right have you got to start accusing other people of doing bad things.
I fully recognise white male privilege, but dont hate all white people or all males. I have two wonderful sons and a wonderful partner but im not going to start telling anyone else what they should or shouldnt fight for, as long as theyre not perpetrators of abuse themselves.
We could all do more, but how much time have we all got really?

Men standing up to other men about their misogyny actually might make them less sexist, MoreBeta.

It would certainly make it harder for the sexist bullies to throw their weight around.

If women had decided that standing up to the sexists wouldn't achieve anything, we'd never have got anywhere. We still wouldn't have the vote, we wouldn't have laws on equal pay (if not the reality), we'd still have rape within marriage being legal etc etc etc.

I think men don't stand up because they want to keep their illegitimate privileges, like the good jobs, money and houses that they have got at the expense of women who have been bullied to keep them out of workplaces and positions of power.

Yup Basil, complacency is the enemy here. And, it's easiest to be complacent when something doesn't affect you directly. Something happening might be unjust, but if it's no skin off your nose (or you convince yourself it isn't,) it's alot easier to jog on by.

Messy, I don't think it's a sign of desperation! I think it's probably just surprise (as it doesn't exactly happen every 5 minutes!) Well, and the fact that I don't think women and girls are generally conditioned to believe that boys and men will do thinks that recognise and value them as human beings in their own right. So when it happens, it feels, well extraordinary. It shouldn't and a bloke who's doing it because he DOES have loyalty to humanity over loyalty to masculinity (to paraphrase John Stoltenberg,) won't let you regard them as a hero.

Yes that's it isn't it Kritiq - you choose your battles and I totally understand that people can't fight every single one and there are times you just have to put up with shit. It's recognising which battles you can fight and which you can't, and not thinking that because you can't fight all of them, you can't fight any.

Basil, your post really resonates with me because I feel that way about my DF. After years of trying to reason with him, to get him to engage on the issue, I've realized that it's never going to happen and getting worked up about it only upsets me.

It's sad, but whenever a man has stuck up for women's equality/rights I've felt inordinately grateful to them, and looked upon them as some kind of hero! Just a sign of how pathetically desperate I am ....

What More Beta made me think of was "picking your battles." As a woman and a feminist, I don't challenge each and every example of sexism I encounter, otherwise I'd be exhausted by lunch time. Sometimes you have to think strategically about the opportunities where you can make the biggest difference and push those, but also you have to consider your personal safety and sometimes yes, your welfare and livelihood. If, for example, I'm in a pub and I overhear a group of 5 or 6 men making sexist remarks and I'm on my own, it might be too risky to challenge them directly. It can be the same for a man in that situation too.

But, having said that, it can be really easy to become complacent - to convince yourself there is nothing you can do about an injustice because you don't have the power, it's not the right context, your safety or livelihood could be at risk. Men who are committed to challenging sexism especially need to be vigilant, be quite tough on themselves in asking whether there is more that can do in any given situation. Am I really likely to get the sack if I question a comment from my boss or an unfair company policy? Will my friend really send me to Coventry if I challenge him about his sexist language, and even if he does, do I need people like that as friends?

Deeds always make more difference than just words.