Girls don't cycle?? What's up with that?

You are talking within the context of the fact girls and women don't participate in sport as much as boys and men. Commentators were giving many reasons - you (poorly for the most part and with what would an be astonishing lack of awareness if it weren't so common) argued that none of those reasons were relevent because they affected men too, and offered as the reason people might not participate was that they couldn't be arsed. That was basically calling women and girls lazy compared to men and boys.

Xenia's arguments about being exposed to an active and sporting lifestyle are also true, but do not account for the difference between male and female participation, unless, for some reason, families with girls tend not to be as sporting.

No worries about the spelling SP

I stand by my comment about people. Not women, not girls - people. I would wager a pound to a pinch of shit that anyone on here who is active themselves will have an active family. Xenia is spot on.

It's also cultural. Some cultures represented in Britain do not go in for much sport (either men or women), over weight, diabetes, girls in cultural clothing which makes sport less likely. They also don't get enough sun and can be deficient in vit D.

My daughters virtually lived at their riding stables as teenagers so dirt, mess etc was just part of normal life for them. Parents should try to ensure they encourage girls to take risks and be active.

Sorry about misspelling your name that was not intentional.

sanjeez This is where you said women and girls were lazy shits: "I think some people hide behind lazy excuses when they just really can't be arsed.".

By the way, if the 'lazy' thing is from my water polo comment, that was a gender-neutral point. It was a point about minority sports.

Right. So I am copping the 'crock' comments because....ooooh, can't think why! Other people have made all sorts of comments like 'well you can't do it in high heels, and it messes up your make-up', and that is okay! Where have I said anything doesn't matter?? Is that what offering a reasoned alternative viewpoint boils down to? Where have I said women and girls are lazy shits? Putting words into someone else's mouth seems to be a common tactic here.

I am not being abusive. I am not being dismissive. I am trying to have a reasoned discussion, and to address certain points. Am I not allowed?

@ Sanjeev: it isn't about the possibility of taking part though, is it? It's about the probability of taking part. No one is arguing that it is impossible for girls to get involved with sport, just that not a lot of them do. So why? If you want to assume they are all lazy individuals fair play to you - I prefer to look at some wider pressures too.

And dress vs. cycling - never stopped me or my friends in the '80's. I cycled in long skirts, short skirts and kitten-heeled court shoes. The only one that defeated me was the long, tight, fish-tailed skirt Impractical teen girl clothes have been around a long time. So what has changed?

Sanjeev,

Yes I agree that men also are subject to comments about their appearance, the point is that it has a different impact on young women. The abuse that Martin Johnson gets is not more acceptable than what Rebecca Adlington got, it is just less likely to put boys off sport.

Personal experience of women in sport, such as your family and the other stories here, can be illuminating but I'm also trying to share some of the research available. Don't write off all inactive women as merely lazy, it's lazy thinking on your part.

It's got nothing at all to do with professional sport Sanjeev, that's just an excuse. If the media only covered professional sport we would not have to endure the bleeding boat race on the Telly every year.

Women's sport as a whole is not taken seriously. Take a look at the BBC sport's website for example. The national teams are either the "GB Team" and the "Women's GB Team" As is so common, the male is the norm and the female is the other. It's subtle but insidious. The message is you will never be as important as the men.

Take also the case of the GB Men's football team. This is a team that has not won a major tournament since 1966. Yet the discussion about who will be the manager has been front page news for months. Endless media time is taken up discussing the permutations. Yet the women's cricket team are world champions. Did you know that? Nope, didn't think so. They beat NZ a couple of weeks ago. Zilch mentions in the sports media. The UK women's rugby team have held the 6 nations' championship medal for 6 consecutive tournaments. I could go on.....

I wonder how much it is the focus on it as an activity in itself that has put girls off - the rise of BMX instead of teenage bikes being primarily for transport might be part of the cause of the polarization.

I don't know why people are engaging with Sanjeev's "oh but that doesn't matter" crock. 18 dozen facets in which women always do worse but it can't possibly be anything to do with the general lack of take up because his wife and girls are engaged. Obviously it's because women and girls in general are lazy shits and nothing to do with culture.

Going back to the original question about teenage girls on bikes, surely a fair bit of it must be the way girls are accustomed to dressing?

I remember cycling everywhere as a teenager, and for me it was definitely about independence. But I was generally quite dressed-down, didn't wear much or any makeup and rarely wore short skirts. I was usually cycling to and from the stables with a faint whiff of horse dung about me, or going for long muddy mountainbike rides. In both those contexts appearance isn't really an issue.

But cycling does get you warm, sometimes sweaty, a bit red-faced. It's not really safe to cycle in heels, and it plays hell with your makeup. So if you've internalised since well before puberty the idea that this is the sort of look that's expected of you, I can easily see how getting on a bike might not seem like an option.

BTW she has a very 'boyish' bike, black and red mountain bike.

I do think it's ironic that in the early days, cycling was a feminist issue, and yet now it does seem to be spurned by teenage girls. I always got around on my bike, loved bike rides with friends, went to school on it for 7 years, college, work... trying to get dd (year 7) to cycle to school is like pulling teeth. She did it twice and mysteriously got a puncture on both occasions

I will certainly not be driving her to school so she has a long (half hour) walk there on her own every day instead of about 12 minutes on the bike.

She definitely objects to wearing a helmet -the school requires this and so do I, so that puts her off, for sure. Basically it's just not cool to cycle, and there are perhaps more boys who are less image-conscious or for whom being 'sporty' is perceived as a positive image rather than a negative one.

Slug, I wouldn't disagree that men's professional sport is far more widespread. But take the example of a minority sport like hockey or water polo. Lack of coverage of either should not lead to people saying 'oh, I can't be arsed to play'.

Just as a side project Sanjeev, I read the local freebie paper on my way into work every morning (Metro) I count the number of mentions of men and the number of mentions of women in the sports pages. It's rarely above 8%. Today, for example there were 22 stories/mentions of men and only one of a (retired) female athlete. It's not unusual to see no mentions at all. The hashtag is #halfthepopulation if you want to go and check.

Actually, I do think single sex schooling improves girls' outcomes considerably but I know many people don't agree. If it is to do so properly though, the facilities need to be as good as those of boys' schools and I am not sure that is always the case. Certainly it wasn't the case for my school (in days of yore admittedly) which had very limited scientific and sports options available compared to my brother's school at least. However, just the fact that what options we did have were open to everyone at the school enabled me to do some sport even though I was shockingly rubbish at it and developed early physically - both things which would probably have restricted my sporting opportunities at a mixed school.

As a result, I was keen to try other sports outside school and until I recently(ish) had DD and got very fat I was always involved in some sort of physical activity or other without any embarrassment as to my essential lack of talent.

To give her the confidence to do and try everything, I will definitely send DD to an all girls school if the option to do so is there.

I have no wish to scare girls into not participating and I think it is odd that you have chosen to imply that I do. I fail to see how me asking you questions on an internet forum is going to do that anyway. If you disagree with what I say, fair enough, but best not to get personal about it eh?

I don't think it is positive to minimize the discomfort that girls and women can feel in contexts where their bodies are on show to men and boys.

Pretending that it is the same thing as men and boys bodies being on show to women/girls is disingenuous.

Daisy, just one of your points; - women athletes are still judged by their looks - people thought it funny that Frankie Boyle called Rebecca Adlington "someone who's looking at themselves in the back of a spoon" on prime time TV.

Rebecca Addlington is quite possibly about to become the first woman to ever retain two Olympic swimming golds. She is stunning. Martin Johnson used to be compared to one of the stone heads on Easter Island when he played. 'Peter Reid's got a monkey's heid (head)' was regularly sung by 20 thousand Newcastle fans when he played against them for Sunderland. If you think sportsmen don't get abuse for their appearance, you have not been to many football matches

Beachcomber - one of them made everyone feel uncomfortable. I wont go into details. He never stopped us doing what we wanted to do.

The girls would watch us at rugby and football, yes. Comments were made of that nature, yes. We were all hormonal teenagers once!

My wife and sister in law live in the same society. They both run marathons, half-marathons and 10k's. Because they make the effort, not excuses. I admire them for what they achieve.

If you want to perpetuate FUD and scare girls into not participating, you keep right on with this. I will continue to positively encourage. Let's see who has the most positive influence on female sporting achievement.

Sorry - link again

wsff.org.uk/publications/reports/teenage-drop-out

Sorry, am at risk of hijacking OPs thread about cycling. But will just reply to Sanjeev:

• sexist PE teachers - Colditz' experience was an example, the bullying / barking aspect was not the most worrying thing, it was that she didn't address the sexual bullying in the class.

• media coverage - It might be improving, I haven't seen the stats yet.

• women athletes are still judged by their looks - people thought it funny that Frankie Boyle called Rebecca Adlington "someone who's looking at themselves in the back of a spoon" on prime time TV.

• women who play sport are characterised as unfeminine, butch or even lesbians - it may be 30 years out of date but it still exists. I should say that women and men are guilty of this mindset (there's a 2007 report from Women's Sport and Fitness Foundation about this but couldn't find it today, sorry).

• male coaches bully female athletes to keep their weight down - yes they may do this to men as well but it is unacceptable, and with men, it doesn't have long term consequences for their fertility.

• sports facilities prioritise male team bookings - this is an historical situation - they will honour existing bookings year after year after year meaning that new female teams never get a chance to book. It's particularly bad for female rugby and football, also affects disability sports.

See [http://wsff.org.uk/publications/reports/teenage-drop-out] for issues specific to teenage girls dropping out of sport.

I don't want to make excuses for people who are lazy either, but if people are turned off sport we need to reduce the barriers to encourage them to take part, not barrack them.

Xenia - as I say above, the all girls schools near me do not appear to have many cyclists. But the boys ones do. Single sex education isn't a panacea for a sexist society.

Put them in an all girls school as mine were and they are very sporty. My girls always were sporty and cycled. One ran last year's marathon. If there are no boys in your school then nothing is a boy thing and everything is possible for girls which is why girls do so much better ins ingle sex schooling I suppose. Also we have always been keen for the girls (and boys) to take physical risks whether that be skiing (one girl did a ski instructor qualification and is pretty good; both girls had a horse and show jumped), sailing, scuba diving or even just making your way as a teenager through London at night on night buses.

Sanjeev did your barking PE teachers make you feel uncomfortable sexually?

Did they put up with the girls in the class heckling you in a sexually aggressive manner whilst you wore clothes that made you feel your changing body was on show to everyone?

Did you live in a society that objectified your sex and sexualized your identity?

Were you part of the group that is considered the gatekeepers of sex? Were you part of the group that is considered sexual 'prey' by much of society?