Devaluing female/feminine behaviours

Interesting thread.

Takver empathy and being a good listener are interesting attributes to characterise as more "feminine".

Various studies have show that there is actually no significant difference between women and men when it comes to the ability to empathise with another person. I guess the reason why empathy is seen as a "soft, feminine" characteristic is because it is the flip side of being aggressive, and aggression is generally glorified in our society (and therefore seen as a masculine trait).

I suspect putting empathy on a pedestal as a positive female trait is a bit of a placatory sop to women (not meaning you here, Takver! Just musing about it) - it's a way of saying, "Ah, but don't worry ladies, you're much better at empathising with people than men are..."

I think there is a strong element of women being assigned all the attributes that men don't want.

Our heritage is Christian and the creation myth is the ultimate in making women the 'other'. Eve was created to be Adam's 'helpmeet', she wasn't created as an individual to rule the garden of Eden alongside her spouse, she was created because Adam could not find a suitable helper amongst all the other animals, so God put him to sleep, removed a rib and made him a suitable helper. Woman was made for man. Man was the first, the original, the perfect creation, woman was made to help him. I think that provided the opportunity for men to say ''well we are like this, strong, confident, leaders, assertive, logical, therefore women are gentle, submissive, followers, emotional''.

sunshineandbooks, I do agree that recognising the value of primary caregiving is very important, but I'm not sure I believe that in a truly non-patriarchal society women would necessarily be the dominant caregivers beyond the very early weeks.

Of course in our industrial capitalist society where work is extremely separate from homelife there's a push to having one dominant caregiver, but my suspicion is that many parents would be happier with a mix of care-giving and productive work - no reason a b/fing mother can't feed & spend time with a baby, and then father (uncle, big brother, big sister) spend time with baby while she is involved in other activities.

I also like your post a lot, AlanMoore.

I also agree with you, SuchProspects, there's a fine line to tease out those 'feminine' behaviours that are a product of the patriarchal system from those which are positive and should be celebrated and encouraged, woman or man (or indeed neutral and harmless).

So I guess a crude example for me would be dress. Wearing super-high heels wouldn't be a great idea IMO even if men and women both did it equally. But, say, empathy and being a good listener is a characteristic that we should encourage in all of our children.

Good thread. I agree wholeheartedly with the idea that feminine behaviours have been devalued, with the ultimate example of that being motherhood of course. I think HandDived makes a good point about that and why it is after having children that many women rediscover feminism. That was certainly my experience. I'd never really experienced any direct sexism in my life up until I had children and I was totally unprepared for it and quite shocked that I could still suffer such consequences in the year 2007 simply because I'd done something as natural and common as having children.

I think Such makes a good point that some female behaviours aren't natural at all but have been forced on us through millennia of social conditioning (e.g. being less confrontational and more willing to compromise). But that's where it gets complicated isn't it. How many traits are feminine and masculine. Are any due to sex or is it all due to conditioning? If we lived in a world where gender was irrelevant, would we suddenly find pretty much all activities about 50/50 by gender? Is it the case that the patriarchy has deliberately pushed all the things it doesn't want men to do onto women and then devalued them to keep women in their place? In which case, is the answer to raise the status of tasks women do or to remove gender stereotyping? Or both? Can we change certain tasks? I still believe that women will always shoulder more of the childcare simply because they are the ones that gestate, labour and breastfeed and part of me feels concern that women should sacrifice this to be more like men when I feel there is a strong biological pull there for many women to be the primary carer. Wouldn't it be better to recognise the value of it, rather than to make it more equally split by gender? After all, as long as we live in a capitalist society where two part-time jobs will never pay as much as one full-time one, 50/50 parenting isn't a realistic option for many couples no matter how much they'd like it to be.

Sorry, musing now.

Simone de Beauvoir wrote:

"Man is defined as a human being and a woman as a female - whenever she behaves as a human being she is said to imitate the male."

Males cannot possibly take anything female on board as to do so would decrease their humanity.

I like you post AlanMoore and I hope it becomes the rule rather than the exception.

I should also have said my DP is not especially in touch with his feminine side as it were, although he is a very hands-on parent and shares the "wifework" equally with me, which I think might be partly to do with him looking up to women at work so not feeling that what women do is beneath him iyswim!

My DP works in a public sector organsation where the upper echelons are very slightly female dominated (I think it's about 52/48). He is sort of the top of the junior grades and currently his line manager is male but their ultimate boss is a woman. I think it has definitely shaped his expectations of the workplace.

Things like illness or crying at work are not seen as signs of weakness - he line managed someone a couple of years ago who was having a tough time with his mental health and I was impressed by how much understanding and patience everyone seemed to show this guy. If he was having a bad day he could just get on with quiet tasks that weren't too overwhelming, whereas here you would be told to shape up or ship out if you were a bit teary. The man is much better now and back working full time, but if he worked in my organisation I think he would have been "managed out" as there's no way they would have been so accomodating, he'd have been expected to function at full throttle or be signed off sick with no middle ground.

Presenteeism is not encouraged, flexible working is the norm. They have senior managers who work part time. They seem pretty productive and happy compared with the staff in the public sector organisation I work for...

I think it shows that when there are enough women in senior positions to allow a balance the culture of an organisation can alter to allow more traditionally feminine traits to be valued.

Yup, it's one of those things you see very early on in childhood - girls emulating boys is seen as 'cute', boys emulating girls is seen as worrying. Think of the respective connotations of 'cissy' and 'tomboy'. It's all about heirarchy, with maleness seen as superior to femaleness, so that it's fine for the inferior to imitate the superior, inappropriate for the reverse to happen.

I agree there is a major issue about all things "male" being the default and things "female" being considered lesser. But I think we need to be careful not to embrace everything "typically female" as good simply because women do them. Some behaviours ("male" or "female") aren't necessarily great and many have been forced on us by a patriarchal system.

I absolutely agree this is a really important issue and one that needs to be talked about more.

Will be back and post more, need to think about this one, looking forward to reading what everyone has to say.

I think it is all about male being the default and what we should all aspire to. The whole world is run for the benefit of men, especially the working world, so yes behaving and thinking like a man is going to make life easier and get you further.

I think that is also why many women find feminism after having children, because suddenly your "femaleness" is there for everyone to see and immediately you are as subject to discrimination as the rest of the female population.