Parenting a boy is a feminist minefield!

DS will see me changing car wheels and showing off about it, geeking out about carpentry, DIY and everything cos I'm a massive geek and he'll see both his parents in a (verbal) shoving match over putting together flatpack furniture cos it's so much fun.

It's like meccano for grownups!

But yes, he will see each parent doing jobs, as and when they come up, which an adult needs to do. The only thing I've done for DS that DH hasn't is breastfeed, really. And I do keep pointing out to DH how selfish he is for not lactating, but apparently he just can't, poor love

it's not only for feminist reasons really because i hope the person i am and what he sees will mean that he will do well at choosing partners in his life - that he'll be attracted to strong independent women (if he's straight) who love him and want to be with him rather than 'need' and use him. i hope he'll have little tolerance for that stupid learned helplessness behaviour that some women exhibit in order to get everything done for them by men. i don't want to see him treated like my father was or thinking that is normal.

yes i want to raise a good feminist principled man who won't abuse women or his privilege but i also want to raise him to have really high standards for what kind of woman he'd want to be with and raise children with.

just hope that there will be plenty of those women out there so he doesn't end up like me as in single because there is a massive shortage of people worth having a relationship with.

swallowedAfly Applauding your point about putting together furniture and lifting heavy objects. Many threads here emphasise how important it is for boys to see men doing 'female' stuff such as cleaning, cooking etc. to undermine stereotypes. Not so many emphasise how important it is for boys (and girls) to see women doing 'male' stuff.

How often, for example, would posters' sons see Mum changing the wheel on her car, doing electrical stuff, using a chainsaw to prune trees for example?

wondered who Thing was

my son is 5. i suppose the main thing i do is challenge stereotypes - re that's for girls/boys etc. i also intervened at school when i kept hearing he wasn't 'allowed' to play with girls anymore because boy X says so and it became apparent that boy X was having way too much sway over the boys in the class.

i spoke to the teacher the first time with little result and then i spoke to the teacher with ds and let him explain it in then 4yo terms of what was going on. then things did change and ds is happily playing with a range of children again rather than being dominated by this one boy. i gently made clear that the whole boys v girls, boys shouldn't play with girls or they're a wuss (sp?) etc culture was not inevitable and that school can and should challenge it as apart from anything else it is oppressive for those who don't fit into a fixed 'this is what boys/girls, do-play-think-feel' etc model (re: pretty much everyone if they aren't subjected to this oppressive policing).

i talk about feelings with him and i encourage the use of words to express emotional states like anger.

i exploit learning opportunities - e.g. watching mulan and talking about how brave she is and what a good soldier etc and how silly it is that she has to pretend to be a boy or she wouldn't be allowed to do anything because people think girls can't.... or boys can't.... etc etc.

i try to expose him to stories, films etc with positive and admirable heroines - the labyrinth is good.

i make a point of not going along with stupid treatment of him re: when he hurts himself it's perfectly ok to be upset and show you're hurt ffs.

i put together my own furniture and lift heavy objects and move things around etc solo and he sees how strong i am so he has a positive example that women are strong and capable and not weak and puny and have to get a man to do everything for them. when he does something that shows physical strength he says, 'look i'm strong like my mummy'

likewise i let him see me assert myself, enforce my boundaries, challenge sexist behaviour/comments.

i'm not in a relationship but if i was i'd want to model equality and not conforming to gender roles in the home. that is a key one for people raising children in two parent families imo - you can say all you like but if they're seeing you picking up everyone's shit and scurrying around working whilst your partner sits on his arse then clearly they learn from that and actions speak louder than words for forming expectations about reality.

(disclaimer - i don't know if chimps had clitoris'! i do know that there are a lot of theories about the development of breasts to emulate buttocks as epigamic markers that then encouraged ventro-ventro sex which is theorised to encourage eye contact and bonding leading to better input to infants from the male etc. most of the theories read like utter bs frankly. i don't remember any mention of when clitoris' developed or whether they were always there)

realistically i don't think chimps had clitoris' or enjoyed sex - it was literally being grabbed by a very aggressive male and shagged for a few seconds from behind. not really comparable to our modern interpretation of sex and sexual relations.

not holding myself up as an expert btw!! just thinking it through and theorising.

I think I'll bow to your superior anthropological knowledge there, SaF. That sounds like a credible theory to me. Albeit one that doesn't sit comfortably with our modern take on things.

not sure that made much sense but the way you presented it fits with how we are nowadays - as in sex being something other than aggression and physical overpowering of both other males and the female mated with. but our instincts and those kind of biochemical patterns come from much earlier stages of our evolution when sex and aggression were synonymous really.

or maybe sex is imprinted as a competitive or aggressive act that increases testosterone and that is the cause of them experiencing a surge and that then maps onto other experiences of aggressive/competitive behaviour. because if you look at our closest ancestors mating is pretty much being the top thug amongst the males and guarding females to rape when they show oestrus. in fact it's THE source of aggression and competition amongst the males.

so surges of testosterone may not be after aggression so they have sex but because sex is the prime expression and organising centre of aggression. doesn't sound 'nice' of course but primatology would support it i think from what i saw in my anthropology studies. females had no need to have such a response, their survival depended on cooperation with a group of females who were the core of the group and found food, raised young, led the direction the group travelled in etc whilst the males just mapped onto them and followed them.

SaF apparently females don't experience a noticeable rise in androgens (eg testosterone - or indeed estrogen) in that sort of situation.

One theory is that the reason males do is to make them more inclined to mate after winning a competitive situation, a hangover from pre-civilisation if you like. So I suppose the thinking is the male that performed better is the one who would then have the best chance (and be best motivated) to pass on his genes. (I think similar effects have been recorded in males of other mammal species).

do females also experience increased levels of testosterone in those circumstances IC?

I think unbridled masculine aggression is certainly a feminist issue as well as a social one. It's hard to know whether toy guns, swords (and shoot 'em up video games) actually "promote" violence or not, although hormonal studies suggest there's an argument to say they do.

Apparently, testosterone rises in response to an aggressive or competitive situation, rather than a rise in testosterone being the precurser to or cause of aggressive behaviour. And it rises further just after the aggressive/competitive situation has abated (even higher in the "winner" of the situation than in the "loser"). In fact, testosterone rises in men even if they are only a spectator of a competitive/aggressive situation (eg, watching a football match on TV). However, there's a bit of a chicken/egg argument here - if aggression causes testosterone to rise rather than the other way round, so what? Adrenalin may have a stronger role to play, or may work by interacting with testosterone.

In fact, if I remember rightly, the hormone found to have the greatest link with excess aggression is serotonin - a lack of it. In boys/men, apparently a shortfall of serotonin tends to cause aggression and in girls/women depression. But these different reactions are probably to do with the way the different sexes are pressured by society to act out or suppress certain emotions.

Aggression - in girls and boys - can be extremely anti-social and harmful, so both sexes need to learn to control their aggressive urges (whatever role hormones may play). I think part of the problem is that aggression is often regarded as part of the "boys will be boys" mentality and is left unchecked.

well we have been shopping and he has a new dress, a tutu and a fairy outfit! he loves them, i did a thread in aibu to buy my ds3 (7) a party dress, the responses are fairly positive actually! i am about to update it with his purchases :)

As the others said, 4mad, if your DS is confident enough not to let any teasing bother him, then why not? Bless him, sounds like he's striking a blow for subverting gender stereotypes, hats off!

It annoys me that girls are expected/encouraged to like everything pink and princessy, but it equally annoys me that boys are equally expected/encouraged to dislike those things.

Children should be allowed to follow their own tastes with minimal interference from the outside world IMO. And it's great that not all boys look down on certain things because they are deemed to be for girls.

I think if it hadn't even crossed his mind that other people might tease him, if he's never encountered anything like that in the past and is the naive innocent kind, I might be inclined to say something about how other (IMO narrowminded) people might react but of course support him if he still wants to go ahead. I wouldn't want my child saying 'why didn't you warn me'.

I wouldn't worry if he's already aware that it's a bit different.

i think you're right that it is his choice. even if he was getting teased and other parents were bothered by it it would still be his choice wouldn't it? as in whether to bow to that pressure or be willing to ignore or confront it?

if it doesn't bother him what people think then i think it would be really sad to force that upon him iyswim. it's quite an admirable quality to stick with what you like and want to do/wear/be (so long as it's harmless to others which this certainly IS) and not let fear of judgment control you. i reckon let him decide when/if it's time to stop. for now he's happy so go for it i reckon. he sounds awesome (loved the 'actually it's a fairy scooter and i like fairies')

my nephew used to love wearing dresses and would disappear upstairs and then come floating down the stairs in a dress and who knows what with full on gestures/posture/affectations that the dresses brought out in him. it was a bit uncomfortable for some members of the family but tough. he eventually of his own accord stopped doing it but we talk about it still as a feature of his childhood and he doesn't get embarrassed or feel he did anything wrong (nor should he), it was just something he loved doing as a kid and then lost interest in later.

he's a very artistic, creative and individual soul and i think the dress wearing was a part of that. there was a lot more room for creativity and play and acting in girls clothes and accessories than boys so he was attracted to them.

arghhhhhh i just typed a big long post and its been eaten!!! grr
i dont know the answers to your question immaculada and i dont think those who run the education system seem to either! nto good, i guess we all just try and encourage our own kids?

in my case i didnt sent ds1 and ds2 to school until they were 6 and 9yrs old and ready to go. with ds3 he started just before turning 5 and i ignored the schools stressing about the lateness of his reading etc, he is now in yr 2 and doing just fine! ds4 is due to start this sept adn like i did with ds3 i will keep him part time as long as i deem necessary and i shall have the same relaxed attitude to reading/writing etc. tho tbf to him he is already doing well with his letters, numbers etc, purely through having elder siblings i think.

i have a question for you all :)

my ds3 who is 7 and in yr 2, has always as i have mentioned, liked fairies and tinkerbell and princesses etc, he has in the past worn either a pink silk party dress or a tinkerbell dress to school on non uniform days or to parties, however he has had a growth spurt and they dont fit :( he is gutted and sat looking at new ones in a catalogue. i was thinking i would just buy him some more, but dp is worried that he may get teased etc. this hasnt been an issue so far, his friends seem to accept that he likes to wear them and the girls compliment him! he is a very popular, outgoing little boy, who just happens to like wearing dresses, he likes lego and football etc as well.

anyway he has a few parties coming up and wants new ones so he can wear them to the parties. i dont see the issue myself, if he wants to fine, its either a phase he will grow out of, or he wont he has the confidence to do it and he has in the past stood up to those that have said he was being 'girly' ie he has a tinkerbell scooter and was told he was riding a girly scooter etc etc he simply said 'no its a fairy scooter actually and i like fairies' ignoring the girly comments.

i just think he is happy and confident in who he is and isnt bothered so i should just let him carry on? i was planning a trip to h&m with him so he can have a look at some partyish dresses and pick one he likes and as he is keen on the princess dresses i shall try and get some of those as well, tho i am keen to avoid disney ones, but thats a whole different debate!

anyway i mentioned on another thread once about him wearing dresses to school and was slated for allowing him to do so, or else not even believed! i think we are lucky that its a smallish primary, two classes tops per year, some are less and some are mixed age classes due to numbers. and all the parents seem pretty laid back about this type fo thing and we havent had any issue really, this is good! and i feel as long as he is happy and confident then i will let him carry on with it, its not my choice to make is it, he wants to wear the dresses so why not? oh and its seen as fine by his elder brothers (12 and 9) its just Dylan being Dylan and no one bats an eyelid :) we have always had a variety of toys and we dont differentiate between girls/boys toys, so i figure this is just the same?

views please? :)

On further reflection, I think there's evidence to suggest that overall attainment by girls and boys has gone up over the years, but girls' attainment has been improving more quickly. So I think the temptation to presume that one sex's better achievements is to the detriment of the other isn't necessarily correct. So the question is how to help boys catch up with their female counterparts at school and how to translate girls' scholastic success to their university careers and into the workplace.