Guides or Scouts

Blackcurrants, it might be fairly similar as here (in Canada) with the scouting movement... There are an awful lot of church sponsored scouting groups (each pack or whatever has to have a 'sponsor' unlike in the uk. So lots of scouts are church sponsored. These groups have slightly different rules.....

If you find a group that is community or workplace sponsored, then there's no bother. I ran one. just do your research....

Interestingly, listening to American women of my age (late 20s early 30s) talk about it, they found the girl scouts to be fab - leadership experience, outdoorsy, feminist, progressive, safe female-only spaces, etc. All positive messages. The Boy Scouts, however, are (from what friends tell me) oddball religious-right-dominated havens of masculine posturing.

I know my artsy liberal progressive friend nexus is going to be subjective in its reporting, but it has made me think twice about what to do for DS, should he want to join the boy scouts. Whereas I would have encouraged a DD towards the girl scouts here, I think. Not sure if there are girl guides, actually.
I was in a Brownie troup back in England, but didn't join the guides as it was 'boring'. As a Brownie we did lots of crafts and games, but never anything outdoorsy or involving camping or anything. I rather wished we did, at the time (and since then!), but enjoyed myself nonetheless.

DD1 who is in Year 6 is having a bit of a rough year at school. She isn't fitting in at school at all and Guides is a haven for her.

I just asked her why she likes it so much and she reeled off a great long list including; challenges, fund-raising, helping people, badges and discussing equal rights.

I asked her if she prefers it being girls only or would prefer it to be mixed. She prefers no boys as it would be embarassing to discuss equal rights and self-respect in front of them apparently. The other girls are really nice she says and I know that the guide leader is very hot on respect both self-respect and for others. I'm just really happy that she's happy and has a place to be successful.

Oh sorry massive cross post.

I just looked on the UK Guide Association website and the promises do still include God, so I'm still quite happy to write them off myself. Even if they are happy to accept atheists as having a valid view of the world it's still going to be second class. Given the history, it's not the sea change I would need to see to be comfortable with it. I don't really want my kids to spend much time in organizations that place belief above non-belief. I'm still a little bitter about my own experiences as a Guide, which probably makes me cynical about any changes. They do make lots of good statements about girls though, and the OP isn't asking about religious discrimination.

On the Scouts vs. Guides issue, one thing that always worries me about boys organizations that let in girls is that it is almost always a because of what girls can do for the boys, not because of what the organization can do for the girls. I noticed this with some of the independent boys schools that opened up to girls in the 80s and 90s. Schools that had brilliant science pass rates for boys did not replicate this with girls, who were less likely to take science and less likely to excel if they did. I don't know how that has played out in Scouts, but as I recall they opened up to girls because of falling rolls, not because of a belief that girls were in need of what Scouts had to offer and it was immoral of them to have excluded girls for so long. That sort of crass commercial decision making does not safeguard girls' (or boys') interests, though it may still end up being better (and I don't really blame an organization for trying to survive).

I think it is telling of our society that this is an option that was available to Scouts because of the premium we place on male experience. But had Guides tried doing the same thing, I can't see many boys taking up a place at Brownies, because, well what could a boy get from doing girl things? Grrr.

I really wouldn't assume that, after all my DDs Brownies and Guides get the use of their hall rent free as its a "Christian" organisation. The organisation is doing very well for numbers and I've heard no hints that its going to change the promise.
The situation may be very different in Canada (and I assume for Girl Scouts in the US).

My DDs both did Rainbows, Brownies and Guides and are now training to be Leaders. They are both atheist (as are DH and I) - they have found that the promise and very occasional church services are really the only time God is mentioned! I didn't want them to miss out on Guiding because we didn't believe in God. I think there are parts of every organisation that not everyone will agree with, but this appears to be a very small part, so it is easily glossed over.

On the subject of girls-only, I felt it would be good for them to have that space, as school/the rest of life is mixed. And I was a Brownie and Guide, and I admit I felt a kind of proud belonging 'pull' for my daughters to be Guides. That probably sounds very strange, sorry! But they say now, they feel the same- I suppose it's like the school you go to, or your House at school; you very quickly begin to feel 'one of them' and I honestly couldn't have imagined my girls not being Guides.

To whoever it was said their daughter was 3 and must think about Rainbows soon - do it now! At DD1's Rainbow group, if girls are not on the waiting list by 3, they won't be starting as soon as they are 5.

ah, ok, they just have suggested alternatives for atheists but haven't removed it formally from the uk version yet.

it's gone completely here, so i assume uk will follow suit fairly shortly. i think it was a couple of years ago here - we have stickers all over the old handbooks covering the promise etc

EdithWeston - I have to ask, are you from Rutland/Leics? The name you see...

I went from Brownies to Guides to a joint Ventures/Rangers unit and while the single sex element can be good in a suitably adventurous brownie/guide unit, for a girl who gets mixed sex experience elsewhere anyway, I think that by 15 a mixed group is really good. Last time I went back to the annual dinner as an oldie, the unit had split back into two single sex 14/15-18 groups with a mixed sex 18-25 group and the teenagers just sat in single sex tables and looked shyly across the room at each other. Coming from guides meant that the girls in my unit were wel up for leadership roles etc and it made for some good working-together in equality. Now they just seemed to be unable to relate to each other.

(Yes, yes, and having your first proper relationship within the unit made for some awkward moments but also plenty of good, chaperoned, opportunities for snogging at dinners or camp!)

My only concern with Guildes is that I know some people thought it was just for 'silly' 'not cool' stuff when I was younger and that that was why girls wanted to join scouts. Obviously it varies from group to group but I did feel there was some denigration of female-ness going on there.

they have here, i assumed it was worldwide. no 'god' anywhere at all. (should add am now in canada, but was under the impression it was going the same way in the uk - will google the current promise...)

Oh have they taken god out of the promise Madwoman? Because, when I last looked a few years ago, that and an insistence on the existence and central importance of "spiritual life" were fairly big indicators that atheists might be allowed to take part, but they seemed to be considered somewhat lacking.

All faiths and no faiths welcome in guiding. even the promise has been changed to remove any mention of god or gods, and suggests children remain strong to their 'beliefs', whatever they are. Well, it has here anyway. Huge inclusion projects to ensure all girls are welcomed and none excluded, whether they are Muslim, Christian, atheist or anything else.

It's so sad when people write off the entire movement because of this.

The activities thing varies hugely according to skill set of leaders. Last year we took our girls ice fishing, and they go climbing, and it gets more adventurous as they get older.

I also got my cubs to learn how to iron, vacuum, make hot drinks, cook dinner, and sew on their own badges. we also did a lot of crafts...

I am quite conflicted on this - I went to Brownies, then Guides, and it was one of the least empowering experiences of my youth. Much of our activity defined in a negative way by what boys did in cubs or restricted by old fashioned and very sexist ideas of what girls should or shouldn't do (e.g. we had to be older to sleep over at camp, and we spent our time making camp more "homely" with washing up racks made out of doweling and string!). I think a lot of it was down to the fact our leaders were a bit useless, but there was a lot of gender reinforcement in the movement generally I thought. As a kid I did not have my best experiences or find the opportunities or friends that opened up my life in single sex groups. I tended to like things that we're generally more often engaged in by boys, so it may just be that my interests were less well catered to in such groups - but groups that were almost all male were also less good.

However it does seem like the Guiding movement had a bit of a wake up call when Scouts started admitting boys, and now Guides seem to be working hard to embody some very positive pro-female messages and cover a really wide range of activities (wider than Scouts seems to). I've really liked some of the stuff I've heard coming from the Guiding movement lately.

On the whole I would probably only encourage my daughters down that route of they seemed to be failing to thrive in mixed sex groups. But that's a big change to how I felt 20 years ago, when I would have counciled any girl away from the movement.

But being atheist I won't send my kids to Guides or Scouts, so the choice may be moot - non-religious alternatives all seem to be mixed sex.

My eldest DD until recently did guides, she also goes to a mixed youth group. At Guides it was run very muh by the girls making most of the decisions in quite a demoncratic manner, that just wouldn't work in a mixed setting. Also at 11-14 ish there are huge differences in maturity between girls and boys on the whole (I have both and have worked in schools) also girls often feel more confident to do more boisterous things without boys around. I think it is sad that boys don't have the same chance to be in a single sex group and maybe do quieter things, but then my DS left cubs as it was too boisterous for him (he's a geek).

Oh, and a significant reason for guides to remain single sex is that there are girls who would not be allowed to go for cultural or religious reasons if it was a mixed group.

madwomanintheattic don't even go there! I ran a group until a couple of years ago. Combination of dh's work, PND, my own children and various other things amde me stop. Not quite ready to go back yet! Thankfully there just wouldn't be enough children in the village to support both . The leader started Beavers and Cubs because that way it would be open to all. Can't wait for Ds to be old enough this autumn!

My dd was a Brownie- she was a sickeningly girly girl and wouldn't hqve entertained Cubs! But she moved on to Scouts, and is now an Explorer. I had a preference for her to go to a mixed group because she goes to an all girls's school. In our area too, there is a tendency for Guides to be less physically active and out doorsy. Dd's cousin is a Guide and loves it, and wouldn't enjoy the boat sailing, canoeing, yomping, mud splattered element of the Scouts in this area. Not saying that differentiating always exists- I'm sure it doesn't. But it does round here.

DD was a Rainbow/Brownie but the Guides didn't suit her. Activities were rather passive and very traditional/female orientated and she isn't that sort of person.
So she left, despite the fact that her two best friends remained.
No night hikes, no archery/shooting/wide games/kayaking/messy crafts/survival camping. All stuff her brother's scout group were doing when he was the same age.
It depends hugely on who was running the group and to what happened, and the leader was an Enid Blyton type who knew what she wanted her gels to be like.
Little tolerance for diversity either, especially for those on the spectrum. She liked her pack to conform. It is one small experience, and I'm sure there are better all-female groups out there.
But I always recommend the scout movement to those who ask, I couldn't fault them and we've been involved with them for over 11 years.

I was a Brownie, Guide then Young Leader. It taught me skills that I wouldn't have learnt in school and that are useful. Confidence, working in a team, being creative. And strangely, great presentation skills. I have never been nervous in a corp presentation as I think it comes easily from teaching 30 guides how to put up a tent or similar!

Isn't single sex reinforcing the message that girls are different and can't do the same stuff as boys?

Indith, you could always start a group yourself if you want a single sex space for girls?