I need your help

I think any joking approach is treating their comments as a joke, and thereby either going along with it, or minimising it.

What would happen if you went into "deadly earnest" mode with them? I mean, put your most serious face on and sat down and said, no, seriously, you want to talk about this, what makes them think it's acceptable etc etc? (Come prepared with some useful facts and statistics too). If you could pull it off, it might be enough to make them feel uncomfortable enough to drop the jokes (at that moment at least... permanently might be too much to hope for right away) and maybe think a bit more about the shit coming out of their mouths. It would probably be hard for them to keep up the joking tone if someone's sitting there (deliberately) dragging the mood down.

I also agree with finding some new friends (can also confirm a lot of men are not like this!), but that that isn't the whole solution as it leaves this attitude unchallenged.

rape jokes

People like jimmy carr and ricky gervais are very popular mainstream comedians.
There are facebook groups all over the place about "it's not rape if you say surprise" and similar.
This stuff is out there in popular culture, I am surprised if it has passed you by.

'if good men are the majority - and i sincerely hope they are - why don't they stand up against this kind of thing? why instead of outrage that women are pointing out there is an element amongst men that is violent towards women rather than outrage at men who do this and wanting to stop them?'

Firstly, it is hard to stand up against something that you have never heard. None of my friends ever discuss raping a woman. There is no outrage that women are pointing this out - this subject was started by a man. I AM outraged by rapists, but I believe there is an entire law enforcement agency out to stop them and punish them. How do you or I stop a rapist?

Secondly, as I said earlier, confront it. Directly. Do not pussy foot around or try to turn it into some kind of joke, because no doubt the protagonist will say the same himself - "jeez, calm down, only joking mate!' or words to that effect. Alternatively, just don't go out with them, now you know what they are like.

That is where you may struggle to get a response from other men in here too. I doubt they come across rape jokes all that often. I could be wrong though. Maybe I just lead a sheltered existence.

Oh and welcome to the section LL and KoPo

Things you can say:

"Lads, come on, it's the 21st century. You've been watching too much Life on Mars".
"That's a bit dark, mate. Anyway, isn't it your round?".
"Hope she doesn't return the favour, or you'd be walking like John Wayne for the rest of the year".

My dad would probably go for the middle statement. My DH would probably go for the first statement.

Things you can do:

Make nicer friends. A lot of people think you can always tell a person by their friends, so you don't want to be associated with people like this. 'Nice' friends tend to be found in zones where families tend to cluster, eg schools, DIY shops, religious places, family hotels and so on.

Set up a blog or website challenging this behaviour, as other people have said.

Good for you OP

I think this stuff is really difficult. It is difficult challenging this stuff whether you are a man or a woman. I must ask DH what he does / says if someone says something horrible but I suspect the answer is he changes the subject / goes to the bar or whatever. This type of conversation and sharing of images on mobiles etc is so prevalent that trying to challenge it while you are part of that group must be horrible.

I know that I have had images shared with me by people at work (years ago) which I was really at but I didn't know what to say about it and am sorry to say that I went along with it. I was young and didn't really know what to think. So for a bloke who is supposed to find these things funny... Difficult.

In all honesty I don't know what to suggest. What will be most effective. I think that showing that you think they are immature/pathetic is probably the thing that will make most men pause.

I think changing your friends would be good - and socialising with workmates is not compulsory!

Incidentally I think that there are a couple of men who post in the feminism section regularly - maybe they will see the thread and say how they handle these situations.

incidentally you're right yale students are quite atypical - they're part of an elite that will one day be in positions of power such as sitting as a judge in court where rape cases are tried.

please look on this board and read the case of a gang raped 11 yo where the judge was lenient because he deemed the 11yo to have been willing and to have looked at least 14. this is not imaginary stuff - it is real. these attitudes exist and are even sitting in positions of great power. there are the rapists and then there are their colluders, like that judge.

sanjeev no one has accused them all. this thread is by a man. what this thread is about really is what GOOD men can do in the face of these attitudes and behaviours.

if good men are the majority - and i sincerely hope they are - why don't they stand up against this kind of thing? why instead of outrage that women are pointing out there is an element amongst men that is violent towards women rather than outrage at men who do this and wanting to stop them?

the thread is about how men should stand up against this stuff rather than be implicit in it by defending it, denying it is a major problem in your case and not standing up to men who display these attitudes in front of them.

if you're worried about the reputation of men then it is the rapists and abusers you should be fighting to change, not feminists talking about them.

LordLurkin - have you tried a simple "Really?" and an uncomprehending, unamused look?

If that has no effect, how about "How would you feel if someone talked like that about your sister/mother/daughter?"

-NB- this approach is less than ideal, as it implies that women only have worth because of their relationship to other men, rather than in their own right. However, if you need to go in with baby steps, rather than tacking it head-on, using language and concepts that are familiar to the person you are tackling can be an effective way to engage with them.

You can maybe follow it up with a comment that it is because of attitudes like his that you worry for how your daughters/nieces will get on.

Question Time is boring me now, despite Simon Scharma's presence, so I will take my leave. I'll have a look back later. LL, chin up fellah, don't let the knob heads grind you down.

KoPo, if the gobby shits drag the others down, then the gobby shits need to be confronted. Sad but true. The rest will follow like sheep.

I have no idea what a word like 'massive' means in terms of a crime. One crime is too many, but is it 'massive'? One rape is too many. Some men are doing it -too many. But one is too many. The global population is 6,840,507,003, so we have approx. 3,420,253,000 men in the world. How many are rapists? A whole lot, according to you, but my god, I feel like you are accusing us all.

Actually, it seems surreal to have to quantify these type of acts. You quoted an incident at Yale. I commented on how atypical Yale students are. I quoted an incidence of female gang violence. You ignored it. How would you quantify female gang violence in the UK? Or do they get a free pass because they are female?

I dont think that LordLurkin was for one second saying that 50% of the population were shits. But from what I gather it often ends up that one or two gobby shits drag a group down that sexist route and after that is just gets nasty

I just explained the connection.

THE MASSIVE AMOUNT OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE THAT MEN INFLICT UPON WOMEN ACROSS THE WORLD. THERE'S A WHOLE LOT OF MEN DOING IT. IT'S NOT ATYPICAL. OR DO YOU JUST THINK IT'S ONE MAN INFLICTING ALL THE RAPES AND SEXUAL ASSAULTS? MUMSNET ARE DOING A SURVEY ON IT AT THE MOMENT.

Sorry for the caps but it seemed like you didn't see my argument the first time, so I' thought I'd draw closer attention to it.

Frat boys at Yale - how do you make the leap between a gang of boys at Yale and the larger male population, Nyac? Girls in the UK are involved in gang violence and selling drugs;
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8533185.stm

I am not closed-minded enough to assume or imply that this is common or typical behaviour. I don't roll out accusations that this is what I should expect my daughter or her friends to be involved in.

'Aren't that uncommon'. 'Incredibly popular'. I know why women get so angry on here now when men make comments about women based upon unsubstantiated, lazy stereotypes. Instead of 'epidemic', please provide solid figures of numbers and percentages. Or are you suggesting that my wife and daughter upstairs are in danger of me waltzing up there and raping them? Why not hey, I am a man after all. I'll probably get away with it as well, if the judge is a man.

Back to the OP. I am sorry that your dad was a shit, but you have turned out to be a decent enough chap. Don't let him or a few factory workers tarnish 50 per cent of the population.

Ah, just read the extra info. Well, if it's just peeps you work with, then soon as you clock off, you can write them off. It's not even like it's old mates you feel some kind of loyalty to or something. You aren't contracted so socialise with arseholes, only work with them (and I would hope your employers have an Equal Opportunities and/or Dignity at Work policy so they at least keep their gobs shut on company time.)

My advice would be to ditch the friends. I doubt anything you could say or do would make them change the things they believe, say or do. I've (shall we say) "let go" friends and family who have made racist, sexist or homophobic comments far less violent than your "friend" without giving a second thought.

Neither DH nor I have a large circle of friends, nor particularly want to. But, none of the people we enjoy spending time with would tolerate a remark even in the ballpark of the one you stated. Folks we like best tend to be ones we've met through having mutual interests, so perhaps you're more likely to find friends who aren't arseholes by joining an interest club or website and going to gatherings to "test drive" people.

Life's too short to have people in it who make you feel miserable and unable to be true to yourself.

Good for you OP, although I'm afraid my advice doesn't go any further than get new friends. Why should you have to listen to shit like that? I think it's great that you do want to challenge it though and wish you all the best

. I think perhaps engaging people about your own situation may help, trying to draw out your own background. The charitable part of me hopes that maybe people who make comments like that are doing it from a place of pain and giving them a way to discuss where their attitudes have come from may encourage them to change?

LordLurkin im gonna out myself as your wife cos right now im that bloody proud to be at your side.

No Sanjeev that was what my DH experienced on a night out with some of the men he worked with everyday. Not BNP/EDL lowlifes tht we know of but men from the factory he recently got a job in to pay the bills that my wages dont quite cover.

Given the epidemic of sexual assault and rape too, it's clear that these attitudes aren't exactly atypical amongst a large minority of men.

A gang of frat boys at Yale a couple of years back were going around their campus shouting "No means yes, and yes means anal". These attitudes aren't that uncommon. Hence the number of rape themes in pornography, which is incredibly popular amongst a lot of men.

Story here: www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2065849,00.html

" Id like to throw her over the table and fuck her arse til the cries of no turn to yes"?

This is not male banter. It is not common. It is not accepted in any male company that I have ever been in. Do you hang out with BNP/EDL lowlifes? Unfortunately, quoting this type of atypical crap will just add grist to the mill, that all (of us) men are rapists. I don't blame you, I just know the reaction it will get.

Point 4. is Feminist 101.

Good luck indeed LL. I commend you and you will lose 'friends' but you will gain peace of mind. I know what I'd rather have.

It's funny, dh always reminds me that most men do not conform to the stereotype that the statistics suggest exist.

He has faith in the decency of most men. When I look around I see my brothers, my Dad, my friends and my colleagues who wouldn't participate in offensive talk/jokes/whatever.

Good men are out there. They are not a minority.