I need your help

'"elsewhere" Not here.' Yup. Hence the apology. Thank you for accepting it so graciously. Although this assumes that we are all UK based.

Basil, no, I am not threatened by Sarah. But again I will ask - if you are sat in a crowd of 4,000 people at the Hammersmith Apollo listening to Jimmy tell his joke, are you threatened directly, intimately, personally by him? Yes or no? Not offended or sickened, but threatened, as in being in danger of imminent physical harm?

And what Kritique said.

There are all the men in the audience laughing along with his rape joke to worry about.

No of course I don't feel threatened by a man on stage telling a rape joke.

I am talking about the cultural context in which he tells that joke

I am talking about the normalisation and minisation of male sexual violence towards women.

If you don't get that, then I guess we're not going to be able to have a rational discussion.

LordLurkin's first task could be to deal with Sanjeev.

"elsewhere"

Not here.

John Stoltenberg talks alot in his books and essays about the difficulty of maintaining friendships with men who are sexist when you choose to be 'loyal to humanity rather than loyal to manhood.'

If you really feel you want to challenge these men rather than just extracting yourself from them, I think it's probably more beneficial to find out how other pro feminist men deal with stuff like this.

The context for a woman hearing misogynist comments from a man will be very different from that when a man hears the same thing. Also, doing some research and reading of your own, at least in the first instance, before asking women what you should do shows you aren't expecting women to come up with solutions for you.

Sanjeev, most feminists do take great pains to be clear that they don't mean 'all men' when they say something like 'men rape.' However, genuine pro feminist men really should take it as read that this is what they mean, spoken or not.

In a similiar way,as a visibly white person, I don't feel entitled to 'correct' a person of colour if they say something like, 'I'm depressed by the racist comments of white people.' I have to trust that the speaker doesn't mean all, but take on board that the discomfort I may be feeling comes from knowing that I DO enjoy racial privilege that they can't. So long as that happens, I remain part of the problem as well as the solution. Rather than feeling personally attacked by the comment, I use the unease I feel as a spur to remind myself not to collude with racists, and be more vigilant in identifying times when I might be doing that indirectly.

It's also important to accept that even if you personally haven't experienced alot of overtly misogynist or white supremacist attitudes or behaviour, it doesn't mean one has the right to challenge or even disbelieve the experience of others who have had more such experience. So for example, one may know no men personally that they think would feel entitled to force another person to have sex. That soesn't mean there aren't alot of men out there who do, and the men who just laugh or go along with this are effectively colluding with actions that harm women.

Do you feel threatened by Sarah M telling a rape joke, Sanjeev?

Do you think it's likely to add to a climate in which you have a 25% chance of being raped by your female colleague/ wife/ partner, friend? Do you think that it helps to normalise and minimise sexual violence perpetrated by a female against you?

Or are you going to simply deny that there is any cultural and social context in which these rape jokes are made?

Basil. You know what they say about assumptions? There are women I know who would knock 7 bells out of Jimmy. But if he bummed me, why couldn't he say I lead him on, stroked his cheek, gave him a wink?

You can feel threatened by a man stood on stage, and you in a crowd of several thousand? Really?

Rape as defined in UK law - I was wrong about that. Apologies. It has a wider definition elsewhere to include all forced sexual acts, not just penetration by a penis.

'It is not an issue that directly affects the feminist movement.'

And there we have it.

You'd probably be able to fight him off better than I could Sanjeev.

And afterwards, you wouldn't have to consider whether you could be seen as having sent consent signals by smiling at him, catching his eye, or walking past him wearing a provocative pair of trousers.

Would you feel threatened by Sarah M was the question, not Jimmy C. Because therein lies the difference between her telling a rape joke, and him telling one - he can actually carry it out, she probably can't.

Rape in Zimbabwe. Same as everywhere else - rapists getting away with it and the police and courts taking no interest:

www.trust.org/trustlaw/news/program-fights-against-stigma-for-zimbabwe-rape-victims/

Under section 1(1) SOA 2003 a defendant, A, is guilty of rape if:

_ A intentionally penetrates the vagina, anus or mouth of B (the complainant) with his penis;

_ B does not consent to the penetration; and,

_ A does not reasonably believe that B consents.

The women in the piece that you linked to may be guilty of sexual assault, but not rape. The offence is defined by the wording of the act. If you feel strongly that it is wrongly defined, I assume you are a member of a campaign group trying to get the wording changed? It is not an issue that directly affects the feminist movement.

I said I would bow out. You dragged me back in.

Jimmy C could bugger me. Or murder me. Or steal my wallet in the bar afterwards. Do I think about that too? Do you?

I've only read your first link because I couldn't get past it. Are you seriously arguing that prostituted women being accused of being witches, and being persecuted by the men who used them are proof of women raping? Extraordinary.

"Absolute twaddle"

I hope you realise you're coming across like a Men' Rights Activist from your posts on this thread. They like to dismiss or distort everything feminists say too.

Do you sit in the audience and realise Sarah M can rape you when she tells a rape joke Sanjeev?

Because Jimmy C can actually rape me. If he chose to. And the law would support him in that - 1 in 4 women get raped or sexually assaulted, 1 in 9 women get raped, 90% don't report, of those who do, 4% are false allegations and 96% are true, but only 6% get a guilty verdict.

Still think that laws are set up to deal with rapists?

You did ask for figures.

I don't understand why you are arguing that it sounds as though we think all men are rapists. It was the OP, who seemed to think it's difficult to get a group of men who don't make jokes about sexually assaulting women and who don't think that's acceptable. We're all telling him that it's perfectly possible to find friends like that, because as you yourself say, loads of men don't think this is acceptable or normal.

"The point is that Sarah Millican isn't a threat when she's making jokes about rape, whereas men who do are.' Absolute twaddle.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-15876968
www.charmandrigor.com/clips/details-raping.html
english.pravda.ru/hotspots/crimes/18-04-2005/8080-rapist-0/

No women can't be rapists, rape requires a penis. Seriously this is basic stuff. If you don't know it, have you thought of studying a bit more and declaring a little less?

You're not questioning anything, you're defending the sexist status quo. There's a big difference.

If I have a less than complete understanding of feminism and it's complexities, where better to learn about it than here? Are people only welcome if they don't question anything? I see some right old ding-dong arguments on here, and it's a good thing. Are you against open debate?

Your argument about Millican not being a potential rapist is flawed. The proportions are low, but women can be sex criminals too. You have no more idea than me.

The point is that Sarah Millican isn't a threat when she's making jokes about rape, whereas men who do are.

Nyac - Sarah Millican is in Sardine Queen's article, 5 posts above yours. And her audience is hugely female.

Male sexual violence against women and the culture that surrounds and supports it is definitely a male thing. Where is Sarah Millican making jokes about raping people? How would it even be a threat if she did so? When men make jokes about women being raped, how do we know they aren't actually rapists?

Why are you in a section on feminism arguing this out as a matter of interest? You've got the rest of the internet and even the rest of Mumsnet where feminism is pretty much unaccepted. Yet one place where we draw attention to gendered violence, and misogynistic attitudes and you've got a problem with it.

The rape joke article is something I have never seen before. I know Carr has made jokes about sex with kids before, and Gervais has been in trouble recently for talking about mongs, so I assume these guys think they are pushing the boundaries of 'comedy'. I see Sarah Millican in there too.....hmmm. So perhaps this isn't just a male thing after all? Maybe women find this stuff funny too. It doesn't excuse it, but it seems to say that society as a whole thinks that sex crimes can be funny. There are plenty of priest/paedophile jokes about.

I suppose that is where I struggle with some of the stuff on this board. There can be a generic problem across society. Feminists seem to want to say 'This bit is about us - women. The rest? Yes, it's there, but we don't want to discuss it.' It seems to limit the argument for me. Anyway, this is about LL and his problem, so I will bow out and wish him luck.

"but my god, I feel like you are accusing us all"

If you were less emotional about this then it might help. If you read what I wrote Sanjeev you'll see nether I nor anybody else said anything like that.

LordLurkin is talking about challenging misogyny amongst men in our society. It exists. It's a real phenomenon. So it's good he wants to do something about it. If you've got a wife and daughter, I'd have thought it might be a priority for you too.

Lots of posters saying "make better friends". Well yes I think Lordlurkin would gain a lot from the company of nice, like minded people (don't we all) but I also think that he should be encouraged, if he has the stomach for it, to take these gits on too.