I need your help

I think part of the problem is that it is such a vicious circle- misogynistic 'humour' is so ingrained in our culture that it has become normalised, and even the 'good guys' don't see it for what it is, because it is so accepted as being harmless fun.

(I say this not to excuse the 'good guys' from sporting it and picking other men up on it, but to try to examine the problem we are facing).

I once had a conversation with my DP- whom I can honestly say is 'one of the good guys' in terms of how he treats me and other women: I mentioned a thread on here about Wifework and asked him if he had ever had a conversation with his male friends about what housework etc they did. He hadn't. In his 32 years on this planet, it had never come up as a topic of conversation.

I asked him if he thought that any of his friends or colleagues had the attitude that Wifework was a woman's responsibility his answer was that he didn't know, but thought the answer was no. It was only when I pressed him to think whether he had heard any man joking about their wives or girlfriends cleaning/cooking etc, that he began to think of a few men who might fit the bill.

I don't know what can be done, though. It seems that the good guys don't have conversations about attitudes to women and Wifework, because it is just what they do, rather than a conscious decision. If men aren't having these sorts of conversations then nothing will change. It is all very well to say that men should bear the burden of changing other men, but it seems there has to be a catalyst to change the way they communicate to each other about these issues.

I can see the force in the argument that the feminist movement should be by women for women, but should we really be trying to recruit more male activists?

I reckon AF. Having a picnic whilst wasting women's time and energy (now where have i heard that before?).

Until he comes back and comments on what I said about trigger warnings, he will be filed in my head as of questionable motivation.

Which of course he will understand and acknowledge if he is what he claims. Until then I remain . At least this thread has thrown up some interesting stuff thanks to SaF pointing out what is staring us all plain in the face.

"if they want to be distinguished from rapists and abusers and misogynists they need to distinguish themselves from them."

Yes. This, SAF. And everything else you've said. Fantastic.

Men who aren't challenging misogynists and the rape culture are not women's friends. They too are part of the problem.

magnificent ranting, saf

and where has OP gone ?

fucked off with the cookie crumbs ?

It seems that alot of the time guys become more upset over statements such as "men shouldn't rape" than rapey misogynist statements. They will gladly argue with women that not all men are bad but will not challenge their badly behaving brethren. So show us! You're not a good man simply by not raping and not beating up women. Not doing anything can also be harmful.

think it's the story of the 11 yo being gang raped (thread on this board) and the judge's comments that have lit it. that's about as complicit and... condoning as you can get. i'm sick of making excuses for men. if they want to be distinguished from rapists and abusers and misogynists they need to distinguish themselves from them. we shouldn't be fighting this shit alone, decent men should be alongside us.

magnificent fire, saf (warms hands)
(not being sarcastic)

i don't even know about the benefiting from privilege bit. i think in the reality of what i've observed and seen in my life in real day to day interactions it is simply cowardice. a particular way of acting in terms of group dynamics. someone can act outrageously and yet they stand by him even though you can SEE they know exactly how shittily they're behaving and would be ashamed to be seen by their mum/sister/daughter at that moment standing by the idiot and saying nothing, even though the twitchy, know it's wrong ones outnumber the bully boy massively they are silent.

we need to get rid of this real men are strong over women shite ideology and replace it with real men stand up to men who are wrong. it's not a real man who beats a woman or doesn't take no crap from their 'bitch', it's a real man has the balls to stand up to another man in the name of what is right.

i don't know how anyone can remain respecting of and attracted to a man who stands by and is too scared to say anything in the face of another man (unarmed, not in a position of power, not anything other than a jumped up little twat) saying or doing misogynistic stuff. and any man who says he's never been witness to anything like that is a liar i'm afraid. i do not believe that my experiences over 3 countries, however many cities, various social classes, professions etc etc are magically anomalous to everyone else's reality. this stuff is prolific. no one alive has not witnessed it and been forced to challenge it or collude with it actively or in silence.

yes, completely agree with saf

so, I think the answer to ll "get better friends" is not enough - he wants to change things more fundamentally than that, and more power to his elbow.

still, as someone else said, women are not the right people to ask for advice on this. when we try we get blanked, treated like shit, humiliated, etc... and a lot of stuff happens behind our backs we don't even know about. really, you need to hear from men who are good at this and who give a shit. presumably there are some? any who are lurking might speak up? or just look at sanjeev, and be the opposite? some people say a bad example is as useful as a good one (as long as you can tell the difference)

I agree with the points made by SaF.

If the supposed good guys just stand by, then they are doing nothing to help, and they are perpetuating the brutalization of men. And that helps exactly nobody.

We hear often enough from men saying that it is only some men who behave badly and that they are sick of being associated with the rapey minority. They need to put their money where their mouth is a bit more.

Good points by SaF indeed.

Just to answer the OP, I asked DH how he dealt with sexist/misogynistic comments made in his hearing and he said he usually asks questions of the speaker:

"Why did you say that?"
"Do you think she would really feel that way?"
"What makes you think she would react that way?"
"Why do you think that's funny/appropriate?"

etc.

Might be one technique you could try.

Perhaps most men do know deep down that they gain from their privilege and are not prepared to put that at risk within the privileged group?

Funnily enough, I've just come back from a day spent horse-riding and eating with a group of women, one of whom I knew well, one a bit and 3 I'd never met. And the others had similar levels of knowledge of each other. Exactly what SaF says struck me at lunch - there was no alpha-jostling at all, despite the fact that there were riders of vastly varying ability and there was no existing group dynamic, so alpha was up for grabs, if desired. The conversation flowed from one "centre" person to another, depending on the topic. The riding together flowed similarly.

It was lovely.

(am thinking it's because we give birth to them, we have sex with them, we marry them etc. other oppressed groups don't deal with such complexity of ties and emotion. they don't give birth to and nuture their oppressors so can easily detach and hold them accountable for their part in things whereas we need to believe them good and vindicate them because we love them)

it is deafening and yet we stand by them and assume the best - bend over backwards to say oh we don't think 'all' men are sexist/rapists/actively upholding patriarchy etc because i know some 'nice' men who wouldn't do anything bad to women. why don't we have a higher standard? as in good guys who wouldn't stand by silent in the face of misogyny, sexist behaviour, sexual harassment, unwanted attention and affections etc etc etc? they should be speaking up for themselves rather than expecting us to constantly justify them with remembering to say some men... not all men ra ra ra. we're confirming them as good men when they should confirm it for themselves and prove themselves as such by standing up and saying i agree, i support you, i don't want rape, dv, sexism, inequality etc either and i will stand up and say so.

Absolutely swallowedAfly, the most important men can do is to challenge other men's harmful behaviour, and not stay quiet. There is indeed a deafening silence from non-sexist men.

if you're saying that you know female groups in which a leader harasses and abuses e.g. ethnic minorities/disabled people/homsexuals in public and none of the women with them (despite clearly disagreeing with the behaviour) say anything at all? that's close to a comparable i guess if that's the case. i'm thinking that's not what you're saying though.

that's your response eccle? not to engage with male hierarchies or why men don't speak up more about male violence etc but to just find something you think you can twist into well women do that too? do you understand the context we're talking in - as in that of women actually being killed and raped and abused by men on a large scale?

SAF, are you talking abot feminists/this board, or women in particular? Because I've definitely noticed that many female groups have their alpha 'leader'.

yep - just re-read my one before last post. i am sick of watching men try to disappear into the woodwork as their 'mate' abuses a female in one way or another and they know and can see and know they should say something, do something, stand by her but slink away with a guilty, cowardly look on their face instead. you can see they're disgusted but not a word. they look at her, hang their head in shame and retreat never to be able to properly look her in the eye again. it's pathetic.

you know feminism gets criticised a lot for being.... argumentative let's say - for arguing amongst ourselves over things. but actually that's ok. we're never going to look like a male political group or organisation because we don't do that alpha male shit - we speak up, we dare disagree. there is an element of male culture that is still with the apes whereby some subtle or overt competition takes place and decides who is the power holder and then the rest stand back and let them do as they please. we don't have that.

we just don't do this bizarre power deference, might (be it money, class, muscle etc) is right. we don't defer like men do. not with each other.

this thread does highlight what often concerns me though which is if the vast majority of men are good human beings who recognise women as also being human beings why don't more stand up against this kind of thing? it isn't good enough.

is it still the boy with the biggest bravado rules and none of the non-alphas dare challenge him? that's infantile to say the least.

there is a definite need for a shift in male culture and it should be men who are saying that and working for it. i'm beyond tired of men supporting rapists explicity or implicitly by their silence. men jumping up and down in arms at the 'unfairness' of those being accused of rape being identified and bemoaning the minute percentage of allegations that are false instead of being up in arms at the number of real rapes and violent acts that take place against women every day.

i'm beginning to think that whilst not every man is a rapist the vast majority act like rape apologists and colluders. where are the men's groups standing up and fighting against the objectification, violence towards and discrimination against their daughters? are they all placing their place in a macho pecking in first place against their mothers, sisters, daughters and fellow human beings who happen to be female? is what some dickwad masculinity individual or culture thinks of you the main priority for men?

if that is not the reason then what is? every female had a father and every time he laughs at a rape joke or pretends he can't see discrimination, harassment, misogyny in all its forms he betrays her.

i would LOVE to see good men stand up and be counted. i'd love to see a men against violence to women group spring up and march and campaign and challenge the culture they live in.

deafening silence from men on all this though - the only one's who bother to be vocal on these topics tend to be anti-feminists and misogynists who women are left to challenge and fight whilst the 'good' men look the other way. much like ime what happens when you get harassed by a man in public and you're making eye contact with the other men and you know they see he is out of order and horrendous but despite that shared understanding they take the, 'i'm not getting involved' stance for fear of the guy who's doing it. it does get harder to respect people who stand by and don't have the balls/guts/whatever symbol you want to speak up for what's right.

< likes BC's post >

I find asking people to repeat themselves when they have said something offensive works quite well. These things are often said with a swagger and a bravado which are quite hard to pull off twice.

The probably won't repeat themselves and that makes them look like a dick.

If they do repeat, you say 'yes, that's what I thought you said, just wanted to check I'd got it right so that I can report you'.

And if the example that you gave happened in a work situation, about a real woman, you should have reported the person to HR. Imagine if the woman had overheard.

Also, some advice for you. Next time you come into a predominantly female space and a post graphic example of real life rapey/violent shit - would you be so good as to post a trigger warning.

You do it like this;

TRIGGER WARNING*

At the top of the post that contains the rapey violent shit. Thank you.