Use of the term "hamburger" by sonographers to describe baby girl "bits"

Oh .. I thought this board was for feminism, no?

I am sure that more people would think bad things of a set of lines compared to a swastika, than to a hamburger. That is pretty much the point I'm making. A swastika used to be a sign that did not denote Nazism. However, now, to want people it does not matter that the symbol's original meaning was not racist or anti-Semitic. The meaning of that symbol was taken over my a minority group - Nazis in Germany - who, sadly, made that symbol meaningful to a huge number of men and women. They tainted that symbol.

I think we always need to start by adapting to what a needy individual finds hurtful. If 'humburger' denotes female sexual organs equated with meat (as for a minority of us it does), why not use another term?

btw 'a particular set of lines' doesn't sound anything like a swastika in shape. so that would be a completely useless description of a thing shaped like a swastika.

i think if you were to look into it, though, you might find more people are sensitised to swastikas than they are hamburgers...

maybe you should take this off Feminism and onto the main boards and see what % of women (and men, unfortunately, beachcomber ) make the association between hamburgers and female oppression? because as i said before, i do think Toothbrushthief made a good point earlier about this board.

That makes sense to me, then aitch.

I have to say, I would prefer (just personally) a sonographer to say a shape resembled a particular set of line - I would think it was odd if they said it looked like a swastika.

I am sure sonographers are motivated by wanted to communicate what they know, to the woman or the people who're eager to understand. I'm convinced the sonographer would always prefer a term that makes sense, and doesn't upset anyone. It's not the sonographer's fault, but sadly the term 'hamburger' has some really nasty associations for some women. So - why not avoid using it? There is no good reason to use the term, and some reasons against. Like the term 'swastika', there is nothing inherently rude about the shape described, and sonographers are the last people who should feel bad that such a term has other connotations.

btw i call godwin's!

if something is shaped like a swastika i wouldn't expect people to describe it as something less helpful just in case it might offend, tbh.

"Dworkin Fri 24-Feb-12 20:16:10
I agree with IC upthread. I stated that I was uncomfortable if my feotus' sex bits had been described as a hamburger, as I had two girls. I'd never of thought it. It is a description taken straight out of porn and we therefore are pronofying our girls in utero. This I find disgraceful. I will fight it.

No apologies."

"LineRunner Fri 24-Feb-12 18:43:43
It's uncomfortable that American fast food terms that became part of porn vocab also seem to have become part of sonogram vocab."

if you're going to act like head girl, stewie, probably best if you keep up with what's on the thread.

No, that isn't what I'm getting at.

I don't understand how the fact a broken joint is given the term 'hamburger' matters in the context. It just seem irrelevant to me. I may be missing something.

I agree with the people who said they think the term didn't originate in porn (no one, of course, said it did).

Given the associations with porn - why bother about why it offends?

It's like saying, why does a swastika offend? After all the symbol has a long history in deeply devout Hindu culture. The fact it was co-opted by anti-Jewish forces may not matter - but we would all, I think, happily avoid using that symbol for fear it might upset a minority.

oh well, i must be very stupid then, and you very clever, jericho.

i'm still waiting for someone to come close to demonstrating that this term originated in porn and has been co-opted into sonography (knees and genitals) because of the insidious rape culture that we all operate in. it's been claimed many times on this thread, would love some evidence.

aitch, the first time I read the thread I didn't understand your posts.

I'm not sure reading them again will help me.

but your 'confusion' goes some way to backing up my theory that you are retro-fitting your offence here.

i suggest you read the thread, jericho.

I don't follow ... I'm pretty sure only girl babies have a clitoris or labia?

and it's not being used as 'a gendered term'. it's being used as a descriptive term so that parents can see the clitoris and labia of their female child. but let us not forget that last night it was widely accepted on this thread that comparing all babies, male or female, to any meat product, was crass. had the hamburger shape been used to describe a set of male genitalia, we were told, it would be equally as bad.

well yes, you would think so, wouldn't you? so why all the accusations that this has come from porn or is part of a rape culture? tbh i think that any pornification of this term and the bodies of female foetuses is coming from yourselves alone.

Oh ... I thought the point was that 'hamburger' (which refers to a meat patty to most of us, and is a nasty term for women's genitals to some of us) was being used as a gendered term.

If you're trying to suggest that only women got joint injuries, I'd understand .... but surely both men and women get these, so when the term refers to joints, it is not referring to something gendered, is it? So it couldn't ever be confused with a gendered derogatory term for women's genitals?

I don't think sonographers have got the idea from porn anymore than the joint injury comes from porn. But there are well known metaphors for describing women sexually as pieces of meat. As such, it is likely to be upsetting to some people to describe female genitalia as something connected to meat, even when the original reason for using the description has nothing to do with pornography.

The origin doesn't really matter. It is what the connection is in people's mind, and for some people it is a negative connection. It is rather like bulldozer having an origin in slavery but people generally don't know that so it is fine to use the term bulldozer. Nittygritty on the other hand doesn't have an origin in slavery, but many people think it does have a distressing slavery connection, and find it upsetting. It doesn't really matter where words come from it is how people view them now.

lol. it's relevant, yes. 'the hamburger sign' is used to spot not only female genitalia but a particular joint injury. so, how does it come from porn in that case?

What about the joint injury?

It it relevant?

so the joint injury?

I think it it is a big issue to a minority, surely it is worth worrying about?

Most medics I know would be very upset to learn they had used a term that could upset people - even if it were unintentional. There is no need to try to establish how often sonographers intend to make that association - I'm sure they almost never mean anything by it. There is no need to try to establish how often sonographers intend to make that association - I'm sure they almost never mean anything by it.

We all know - I think - that women are brutalized in pornography. That is where the concern about this term comes from. No-one thinks there is a natural link between that context and little babies. But, in the same way that a misogynistic culture of rape makes many women struggle to relate to their own bodies, so too a misogynistic culture makes some women react against terminology that reminds us of the misogynistic equation of women to meat.

as an aside, do either you or linerunner have any evidence to back up your assertion that the fact that it is described as 'that bit that looks like a hamburger' has anything to do with porn? what about the joint injury? is that a porn reference too?

Yes I do. Good point. It invades us utterly. I despair. Luckily I have you to keep me straight. :)