"Miss goes missing on French official forms" - let's do the same here!

Interesting thread, admittedly I've only skim read a lot of it but here's my 2 pence.

I totally agree there should be just one title for women just as there is for men, be that Ms or whatever. Although tbh it's not the title on a form etc that grates with me, it's when someone addresses me as 'miss'. It sounds like something you would say to a vaguely naughty child, just one step away from 'young lady'. I know most of the time this is not the intention but I find it particularly irritating if it is in a situation that involves exchange of money for example, such as in a taxi or hotel. There is the French 'mademoiselle' that I also dislike. I think as a woman in my mid-twenties I'm allowed to graduate to madame, so to speak. I guess that's the title the French woman is referring to?

Having said that, I don't think 'miss' is on the same level of condescension as the 'Hi girl' I used to hear when I lived in Amsterdam! (this was only a year ago and I do not look THAT young, although admittedly probably the same height as the average Dutch ten-year-old...)

I have discussed this with friends before and a lot have said they prefer Miss as it sounds younger and keeps their marital status a mystery, so I guess it's all horses for courses.

In my culture, though, getting older equals increasing levels of respect and so is considered a positive thing iyswim. So perhaps I'm seeing it through a different lens?

I vote Ms, anyway. Then it's up to the woman to disclose whether she's married or not, in the same way as it currently is for a man.

Am divorced but now living with partner .... so I guess I could really be a Mrs, Ms or Miss. I choose to be a Ms but hate saying it and hate to be asked because generally why should it matter?

Apologies if someone's already said something similar as I haven't read the whole thread, but on the Ms question - the way I see it, it's my only available title (which I'm perfectly happy with, btw). I'm married but have kept my surname, therefore I can't be Mrs [my surname] as I'm not married to someone with my surname. And I can't be Miss anything, because I'm married. Ergo...

maryz you are probably right! Whereas I had the killer combination of free morning + annoying meeting + home and in need of wine....

I need to hope there's some good TV on tonight so I leave MN alone, probably!

Citizen? a french woman, can't remember her name, spoke on radio four, she was in favour of citizen. I think it would be a great idea too, implies equality between the sexes, people of all classes and educational background.

oh why do all the people I agree with only come out at night....?

I have had a few ring related horrible incidents myself, mostly involving the washing machine, but I know my rings saved me from having a finger broken when a heavy sash window slammed down on my hand, which was resting on the inside sill with my fingers in the window well, a few weeks ago. My rings stopped the window from closing all the way down on top of my fingers. I didn't escape without horrible bruising and there is still a little lump on my forefinger just past the knuckle. Without the rings I think I would have broken or even lost a finger or two.

Elabella, isn't it lovely to be living in a world where misogyny is illegal and we can all choose whatever we want because we are free and those old titles mean nothing to anyone any more (yet ironically they mean so much to some that they will insist on clinging to them come hell or high water).

Don't care which one we end up using but there should definitely just be one. I remember years ago when I was single, a spotty youth behind the counter at a Bank asking me if I was "Mrs or Miss" . When I asked him why it was relevant he sneered at me in a "I knew you were single" type way! I felt humiliated...and then so angry that I FELT humiliated! It still makes my blood boil to be honest.

Re rings and men. My DH - who is new man and equality personified - didn't want to wear a ring because years ago he knew three men, who all worked in the local steelworks, who had lost their ring fingers because their rings had caught in equipment. Even worse, there was a horrible incident of a man who was flipped into a drum of molten metal because he caught his ring on a piece of equipment. This was years ago before we were married so one would like to think that modern health and safety would ban rings for people working in these conditions.

I had a nasty accident too when, carrying a cup of tea from the kitchen to the dining room, I caught my ring on the door handle (wouldn't think it possible really but there you go). The tea flew up in the air and came down on my poor dog who was minding his own business a couple of feet inside the room. To add insult to injury the liquid was swiftly followed by the cup, which bounced off his head It didn't stop me wearing my ring but I was certainly aware afterwards how easily it can happen.

PS - ever after my dog would scuttle away if he saw me carrying anything......sensible animal.

Sorry to digress but a lot of people don't realise how dangerous rings can be if you are working with equipment. It may (I only said may) also be one of the reasons men do not wear rings as often as women as more men tend to work in these conditions than do women.

Yes, I figured I wasn't going to get away with that Ruby .

Ms may be seen as too strident in the UK but it is ubiquitous in the US.

Mr, Mrs, Miss and Ms are honorifics or titles, not names. That is what made me sad to see the gravestones with Mrs Patrick Murphy inscribed on them. The women were nameless and remembered as their legal non-personae only.

Yes, my mum used to come out with some real corkers, Minimathmouse.

Maybe the lack of wedding rings had something to do with the fact the men were in pubs? When I used to bring exH's clothes to a dry cleaner I witnessed a good few men having their rings returned to them by the proprietor when they were picking up their suits, having left them in pockets.

I don't think it is obligatory to give a child the surname of the father, or even the mother. Normally a child is given one or the other but I don't think there is a law against using another one entirely.

I just think there's more chance of getting everyone to use "Mrs" for all adult women than there is for them to use "Ms" IMHO "Ms" just hasn't really taken off - perhaps it's been seen as too strident or something ?
This is partly from my experience working in schools where children are much more familiar with Miss or Mrs (and most teachers are "Mrs")

I like the French idea and feel they've given us a good way forward ( They're using Madame for all - we can use "Mrs" for everyone) - I feel I'll always be Mrs and always keep this surname whatever might (or might not) happen to my relationship. Just feel it's my adult name now and I won't be changing it again (So much hassle changing names !)

HopeForTheBest
A child's name has to (or usually does) come from somewhere, I totally agree. And that could be the fathers surname, the mothers surname or a made up one or a hyphenated one. In most cases it's a name that both parents agree on. (In my case we traded - our daughter has her father's surname but my nationality, that was far important to me(!)) It's a bit arbitrary to my point which is that it seems strange to change one's name part-way through one's life. Stranger still that men never do it (and I don't think they would wish to but I could be wrong) but women traditionally do and largely still do.
There is no perfect solution here (and maybe for most people there isn't even a problem) but it shouldn't stop us questioning it, just because it's traditional does not mean it's correct or equal.

'that finger belongs to marriage just her finger, I might get married if all I stood to lose was just a finger

No I don't have any stats, just life exp Mathanxiety, as a student I worked in a few pubs and very few of the men wore rings despite the fact that as a rather small town/community we knew who was married. Of the couples I know most of the men don't wear rings.

Why can't children have their mother's name or both if you feel like compromising!

mathanxiety good question. Perhaps one of the Mrs proponents could answer that one. It's an interesting question because those in favour of choosing Mrs have repeatedly said that they wish to have that choice - that choice would no longer exist if everyone was a Mrs. Just as no choice exists for men currently. So there would in fact be less choice overall. Not that that is necessarily a bad thing.

Incidentally, I find those who are against Ms simply because they don't like the sound of it a bit strange if I'm completely honest. Surely it shouldn't be about the sound the word itself but what it connotes about the person and the bigger picture. And talking of choice, if a man doesn't like the sound of the word Mr, he doesn't have a lot of other choices, does he?

No one so far has said that they disagree with everyone being a Mrs, so perhaps we do have agreement? However, I do remember someone earlier in the thread saying that they are happy to be an (adult) Miss and wouldn't want to change.

bzzbee I too wonder about the future of surnames. There doesn't seem to be any easy answer to that one. Other than a couple choosing their own new surname when they marry and/or have children. Some kind of combination of their existing ones or something new completely.

Nope, Orbinator. It denotes a woman who wishes to keep her marital status to herself.

I think Ms preserves the mystery about your age as well as your marital status..

theoriginalsteamingnit

I thought Ms meant you were a widow or divorced?
I do choose Ms anyway on most forms but depends if you want to sound young, then I'd choose Miss
My point is the associations that go with either aren't designed to help women, from what I can see...

And what a dispiriting day that must be!

Accoarding to Wiki (so it must be true!) "Mrs" or "Missis" is a contraction of the honorofic term "Mistress", which was commonly used (as Madame is/was in France) up until the 17th Century to denote any woman, regardless of marital status.

I quite fancy being Mistress LapsedPacifist . Has a certain buxom Shakespearean ring to it

Minimathmouse (hello to a fellow math person btw) do you have any figures to back up your assertion about wedding ring wearing?

And even if there are, why would this be the case? Do women want to indicate they are married? Do men not want to bother?

Clarabella -- what about the women who are proud to be married and feel closer to their families, husbands, etc., because they use Mrs? Wouldn't it take some of the shine off their title if everyone did it?
(memories of a ridiculous argument between one of my sisters and my mother coming back here -- mum thought Dsis should not wear a claddagh ring on the ring finger of her left hand as 'that finger belongs to marriage' )

I like the idea of no title on forms at all, the more I think of it.

On the subject of 'maiden name' vs. taking husband's surname -- the maiden name is your father's surname for the most part..

Clarabellb - we must have cross posted but your proposal could work.
It seems in line with what France and and Germany now have, and I think if unilaterally EVERY woman was Mrs then it would equate to Mr and be fair and equal. And it wouldn't denote marital status which is good.
Do we still need something different for children? Do male children really get called Master or are they Mr as well?
The solution needs to exactly match the male set-up obviously!