trans-vaginal ultrasound for no medical reason - Virginia, anti-choice

Just read the Bill again - the purpose of the ultrasound is to determine gestational age. Not to see whether it is ectopic or anything else.

I still smell a rat that I haven't uncovered yet, but I bet someone has somewhere. Bloody hell, I was supposed to be having an early night.

Even better. Whilst pushing through the anti-abortion legislation they've still found time to do this.

Because sometimes one handgun a month just isn't enough.

that's always the way - the pro lifers are usually the pro guns, anti welfare, anti free healthcare brigade. the irony.

fetus worship when you don't give a fuck about real living people.

It's notorious because so many of the guns used in crimes in New York are originally bought legally in Virginia.

That is a superb nugget of info, puffin.

GPs etc don't do pregnancy tests, they expect you to do them at home.
If you went to doc asking for abortion and said you hadn't done pregnancy test you would get told to go and do one.
If you were vulnerable in some way then you would be treated appropriately.

If it wasn't so serious it would be laughable. The proposed law would enforce a minimum 24 hour 'cooling off period' between the scan and the abortion. This is in a state with practically no gun control, including no 'cooling off period' which many states mandate - you can walk into a shop and walk out 10 minutes later with a gun. They seem to care a lot about life in utero. Once you're born you're on your own.

"Informed consent is about refusing or accepting offered procedures. Its not about insisting on things that are not offered.

Where do you draw the line then? What if someone didnt want to have a pregnancy test either?"

Abortion is requested, not offered.

Women and girls don't generally try to obtain abortions if they are not pregnant.

Ooh yes. But I expect a bunch of men would only come and invade.

'catsrevil abortion is a procedure that is requested.'

Yes, but it will not be offered if it is not a suitable option.

As I have said already on this thread, I think that whatever serious point that could have been made has been derailed.

Shall we all club together and buy The Azores from the Portuguese (they need the cash)?

It's depressing isn't it Aye Robot, I often think of women's rights as on a piece of stretchy elastic, which will ping right back if we don't keep on fighting.

catsrevil abortion is a procedure that is requested.

Article on the two laws being considered at the moment.

Previous bill that will outlaw private insurance companies from providing abortion coverage under proposed Obama healthcare plan.

catsrevil your language is interesting

You frame the scan in terms of being "offered" when in fact it is compulsory.

You frame the abortion as a person being "given a surgical procedure" when that is in fact what has been requested.

Thanks, SardineQueen. And what also bothers me about this is how many women won't be able to afford the scan, whether it be abdominal or vaginal, if they aren't allowed to claim on their health insurance for it. Which is probably an intended side-effect of the bill.

Informed consent is about refusing or accepting offered procedures. Its not about insisting on things that are not offered.

Where do you draw the line then? What if someone didnt want to have a pregnancy test either?

garde?

You know, for years I naively thought that reproductive rights in the West had been pretty much done and dusted. I never thought that I would be having to go through the same arguments (broadly speaking, not on this thread) as my mother's generation.

En guarde, sistas.

Also, people have the right to make decisions that are potentially detrimental to themselves.

Proper informed consent would go

You need a scan to say how far along you are, so we can give appropriate procedure
Hmm no thanks
We need to check gestation
Scan is against my beliefs, these are my dates, I am sure
We need to do scan
No way hose
If we don't do a scan there is possibility we will give the wrong procedure = risk to you
Yes I see
These are the risks if you don't have the scan
I understand
Are you sure, you see that x and y and z?
Yes
OK then sign this piece of paper, it's your body, we will go ahead.

That is informed consent. What is being talked about on this thread is something else.

A woman who knows when they got pregnant, like a rape victim who is a virgin, or someone who knows that they have only had sex once in the past 9 months, would still have to have a TV ultrasound if a heartbeat is not detected by an abdominal ultrasound.

How do they know they are still pregnant, and that it is intrauterine?

"Viva are you seriously suggesting that the NHS in the UK would insist on a transvaginal scan in a 13 yo rape victim? I don't see it. Really I don't.

They would look at other sources of information - like the ones I mentioned - police, patient history, hormones, and come to a conclusion. If they absolutely had to perform a TV scan even after looking at all other info they might offer a GA.

The NHS would not force a child to undergo a TV scan in order to perform an abortion. They just wouldn't. Why are people who work in the NHS putting this about?"

You have acknowledged that this is an area that you dont know about. Just because you think that something shouldnt be a particular way, doesnt mean it isnt.

Putting it another way, do you really think that a 13 year old rape victim should be given a surgical procedure without efforts being made to make sure that it is the appropriate procedure, that it remains necessary, and that it can be done safely. Vivas post of 23:40:35 explains why your suggestions of checking police records, hormones etc wont work. If you are saying that a GA would be offered if a TV scan really was needed then it seems that you do aknowledge that it may be the only option.

Virginia is over 5 times the size of Wales. It had 22 clinics and hospitals that provided abortion services. Had. This probably got rid of a few.]]

This is not about offering, cats. It's about making it law.

A woman who knows when they got pregnant, like a rape victim who is a virgin, or someone who knows that they have only had sex once in the past 9 months, would still have to have a TV ultrasound if a heartbeat is not detected by an abdominal ultrasound. By law. Does (S)state control and invasion of a woman's body at a legal level not worry you?

"Why is there a suggestion that people who have been raped should be offered a lower standard of diagnosis and appropriate treatment than people who have not been raped?"

OFFERED is the key word there.

This is not an OFFER it is a COMPULSORY PROCEDURE.