trans-vaginal ultrasound for no medical reason - Virginia, anti-choice

I agree with Viva - as far as I am aware scans are routine in the NHS pre abortion, in order to determine gestation (they are in the area I live in). If the woman refused to have a scan then how could there be certainty that the correct procedure for gestation was being used?

viva we're talking about scans via the vagina not abdominal ones. are you saying that vaginal ones were done as standard? as far as i know abdominal ones are given usually.

And you are missing the point that this is lawmakers saying that they must be done, not doctors, the doctors say it should be left up to them what tests are done and in what manner.

Viva you reckon that if a rape victim wants an abortion the NHS will refuse to give her one unless she agrees to a trans-vaginal scan?

Where I work, nhs hospital, they definetly won't do an abortion until a scan has been carried out as they say otherwise they won't know what gestation the fetus is. Now I don't work in gynae but as a student I was there for 4 weeks and saw a lot. Women certainly didn't have a choice about having a scan. It was very much compulsory. If they couldn't do an abdominal scan they would do a vaginal one.

It happened in Egypt during the protests. Women were arrested and subjected to "virginity tests" in front of groups of soldiers.

There are now far fewer women in evidence in the protests - womens groups say that they were singled out and treated harshly in a variety of ways to send out a message.

bonzo77 I read something similar once about women being examined by police officers, I think Jennifer worth who wrote the call the midwife book wrote about it in one of her books, there was often a complete abuse of power where young girls were yanked off the street and examined when they weren't even sexually active, it left some of them with terrible gynaecological problems for life

I am shocked, but not surprised, at the draconian approaches by some sections of US society to abortion. I don't think it's an ethical thing with them, more a power trip.

I read fairly recently (can't remember where, so can't quote the source - but I will find it) that some decades ago there was a correlation between the increased availability of terminations and a decrease in social problems. I think that was referred to as "every child a wanted child". Yes, I know that sounds a bit like eugenics, but it wasn't that terminations were imposed on women, rather that women were given the right to make responsible decisions for themselves. And now that right is being gradually eroded. The reasons in that article are spurious.

Apologies to the USians here, but I've often found it difficult to understand US attitudes (or maybe it's just US politicos?). On the one hand it appears to be a very creative, innovative, and forward-thinking nation, but on the other hand it seems to be Old Testament in some of its attitudes.

Raping women with dildo cams - nice work Virginia.

Sardine It does seem to be idealogically based. And it really is that simple. Disgraceful behaviour on behalf of those who are democratically elected to act on the behalf of all the electorate.

Swallowedafly I had the same experience. :(

Well slutwalk got a huge amount of attention but this seems to be bypassed and much more serious imho.

I can't believe that men who don't possess a uterus can make these decisions. Porn was legalised in the USA because of free speech. But women are herded into this, like cows, because their voice doesn't matter. Of course there are feminist groups in USA who are vociferous about this but women seem to have no voice.

Remember 'The Stepford Wives'? This seems to be actually happening.

for a start, a "foetus" (actually it's and embryo) is barely visible in early pregnancy. A foetal pole, probably, and a HB possibly. So showing a woman her "baby" is not going to change her mind, she already understands that if she doesn't terminate she will probably end up with a full term baby.

I once read a book, I can't remember which that described a procedure (I think end of the 19th century) subsequently described as "surgical rape". It was the forced VE of women suspected of prositution, in order to prove that they were not prostitutes. So really any woman out alone after dark. And the examination was mandated and performed by police officers. Anyway, this is what came to my mind on hearing of this article.

I don't know if the ethos is the same in the States, but here medical professionals tend to perform procedures only to benefit the patient (including abortions), and tests (including ultrasounds) that will affect / guide the treatment. A test where whatever the result the treatment would be the same without it is unlikely to be performed (except in the case of "defensive" medicine).

minor in contrast to some states banning abortion altogether but still yet another piece in the trend there.

i was forced to have one of these scans prior to a d&c after a missed miscarriage because wanky doc 'prefered' them to abdominal ones. it was an unnecessary additional intrusion and humiliation in my disastrous treatment that day.

feel sad for women being made to go through this. the compulsory bit means that even a raped child would have to go through this.

its the compulsory bit that sticks in my throat, like viva said many women have a tvs here in the uk if abdo scans arent conclusive for very early terminations of say 5/6 weeks, but it is not forced upon them yet thank goodness

This stuff isn't new. In some states doctor's are required to read out a statement written by the government, full of misleading and often outright FALSE claims, like "You are about to kill a baby, do you want to go ahead? You are more likely to get breast cancer, do you want to go ahead? You are more likely to get depressed, do you want to go ahead?"

Doctors, obviously, don't like this much. But there aren't that many doctors who actually carry out abortions (They can chose not to train in it, and chose not to offer them) and so the ones that do so have deliberately chosen to support women's choices.

Doctors are objecting to having to carry out this scan. They say it is invasive, unnecessary, and breaches the trust between patient and doctor.

It is mandatory that the woman see the foetus and hear the heartbeat. In some states, once this has happened the woman has to go away and 'think about it' for another 24-36 hours, before she can actually get the LEGAL procedure that she's saved u for and driven miles to get.

They are trying to make women either change their mind and go through with the pregnancy, or just feel awful, patronised and guilty.

Research shows that women don't change their mind after the scans. It's not like they're unaware that they're pregnant, fgs.

The point is that the politicans are making decisions about what doctors must or must not do based on their moral views.

Taking the decision of whether a woman needs a scan or not out of the hands of medics and into the hands of the lawmakers.

Viva the law will mean that it is compulsory for a woman to have a scan prior to an abortion.
For some women this will mean that they have to have a compulsory trans-vaginal scan.
Other articles have said that rape victims will not be excluded from this process.
At the moment it is up to the doctor to decide whether a scan is necessary.
For women having a very early term abortion - a handful of weeks - I think they can just be given a drug and it is done at GP surgeries? I don't know if all these women have a scan? I wouldn't have thought so but may be wrong.

Backdrop is that some states have it written into law that on top of the compulsory scan women have to look at scan and have feotus described to them.
It's a political idea, not a medical one, it's an anti-abortion idea.

Really they do scans for abortions now, in the UK?

OK, I'm probably been really dim but what's the difference between this and what happens in the UK?

If you want an abortion in the UK I was fairly certain you need a scan first to make sure of gestation. They try an abdominal uss first and if they can't see with the abdominal uss then they go to a trans vaginal uss.

I don't see this article saying that all women will get a trans vaginal ultrasound in Virginia. It says "Many women receive abortion very early in their pregnancies, which would mean that, in some cases, a trans-vaginal ultrasound would be required."

So it sounds to me the same as here - try an abdominal uss first, if they can't see what they need to see then they do a vaginal ultrasound.

Thank you for that informative post blackcurrants

So I guess the feeling in these states at the moment is that until they can get these guys out, there isn't really anythign they can do.

I don't blame them for that I feel the same watching conlib policies.