Attitudes to sex: is it maybe a cultural thing?

We could have a political discussion about the Queen visiting Saudi Arabia because she is a representative of a population.

Her going there and wining and dining with the misogynists would be like an endorsement of that society on behalf of the British people.

I'm not going to have a go at you though, because you are not the Queen, and I have no idea what your motives were for being in SA and how you behaved when there.

it's just more seems more in harmony to me, WW

I certainly don't advocate removing anyone's choices.

But I'd be happier in a world where the demand for commodified women's bodies was weaker. I'd like it to be easier to pay one's way through one's astrophysics course by doing something more useful than enabling a wank, especially when the 'collateral damage' can be so devastating.

But other women ARE policed by feminism. Not wanting to thread about a thread, but there was a lot of judging on both sides on that ejaculation thread.

I'm not really up for debating Saudi, that wasn't my point.

If it really bothers you, why not campaign about it? It does sound like an issue you are passionate about - that is great.

I don't think anyone is saying that, just because others are more touched by one issue, you're not allowed to want to talk about something else.

yellowraincoat I suspect that you are not questioned on living in SA for a variety of reasons - as has been stated it is not the job of feminism to police other women.

Your own individual personal choices are for you to examine and explore. There isn't really a political discussion to be had about one individual.

If you want to explore it you may find others will be interested in a thread about what it feels like to live in an extremely oppressive society such as SA. I have never experienced it so I don't have much to offer on the subject.

If you mean that Saudi Arabia should be sanctioned by other nations in the way South Africa was. Criticizing an individual woman for going there doesn't seem a particularly useful thing to do, although if you did indeed have a totally free choice about where to live I would wonder why any woman would choose to live in Saudi Arabia, yes.

Sad but true, proles.

That is my point, Prolesworth.

But I never get any shit about it from feminists either.

But women get loads of shit for saying they are unconcerned about porn.

I don't get it.

"There was a huge outcry when Queen performed in South Africa. There is nary a peep when people go to Saudi Arabia. Why is that?"

Because people generally don't give that much of a shit about women being harmed.

Oh lord, that makes it look as if I mean the SAHMs were attacking feminists ... I'm posting drivel today.

I meant to explain, there have been threads in this section discussing whether or not being a SAHM is a valid feminist choice, and my perception was that mostly, the people who post regularly here reckoned it was. But it got quite heated and interesting. In fact, all the issues surrounding care of children/careers/money can get pretty heated.

Prolesworth, where did I say it was?

I don't know how I can put the Saudi thing any differently to my post at 15.04. There was a huge outcry when Queen performed in South Africa. There is nary a peep when people go to Saudi Arabia. Why is that?

I still don't get the Saudi Arabia thing.

I don't really get why you think it's comparable to porn etc?

And no, funnily enough, it wasn't the feminists attacking SAHMs! Other way around!

The Separatism threads were really good - they started out being about communities of women who'd chosen to live alone, and ended up talking about whether women-only spaces are good or bad, and whether women can ever really distance themsevles from teh patriarchy, and so on ... definitely worth a look if you want to see a non-sex bunfight. I mean there is a teeny bit of sex referred to but it's not the main subject by a long way.

yrc, feminism is about analysing and acting to liberate women from male oppression, not about judging and policing other women

A lot of people boycotted South Africa under apartheid.

So why did I not boycott Saudi Arabia?

And why am I not even questioned why I did?

That is my point.

I've never seen a feminist attack a woman yet for defending SAHMs.

I don't know what you mean by separatism.

I don't understand the Saudi Arabia thing either. Sorry, I am trying.

I don't think women who choose to live in Iceland are better feminists than women who live elsewhere

You presumably didn't go to SA in order to enthusiastically support the regime there?

At a stretch I suppose one could say that you may have benefited from the regime there, but that would depend very much on why you were there and what you were doing. And that wouldn't make it your fault that the regime is in place, nor your responsibility as one lone woman to dismantle it.

In Saudi Arabia, women cannot drive. They have to be covered when outside. They are not allowed to leave the country without a male guardian's permission. They do not have the right to keep their children if they divorce. Husbands can beat and rape their wives and female servants.

And so on and so on and so on.

It sort of makes our misogyny look a bit of a doddle to be honest.

yellow, did you see the separatism thread? Or any of the ones about SAHMs?

They get incredibly heated.

I suspect people talk about sex a lot because we're human and sex is a shared interest for most of us.

'There is misogyny and misogyny though isn't there.

We're talking about a country where misogyny is enshrined in law.'

Sorry, I don't understand. We may be arguing the same point (I'm very pleased if so), but I don't follow this.

The point is though that there are so many other issues besides sexual violence. But no-one seems to get quite so hot under the collar about other issues that affect women.

By that, I mean that, yes, there are other heated debates, but never with the frequency, spite or venom that you see on threads about sex.

Btw, I think an important point to make her (re. Saudi Arabia/porn/prostitution) is that, if a woman makes a choice, and that choice has a knock-on negative effect on women in general, that doesn't mean feminists should all gather around to judge the woman for her choice. I went to the Stop Porn conference, and there were speakers who had been working in the sex industry, and no-one was anything but supportive of them and humbled by their bravery in coming to speak about what they'd experienced. There wasn't any judgement.

I'm just saying this because I think there's a common misconception that feminists who're anti-porn, are primarily antagonistic towards the women who're working in porn - and I don't think they are, I think they're antagonistic to the misogyny supporting porn.

argh bad grammar

Manatee Definitely not< i don't think feminists can only be left wing.

But I see feminism very much as a collective movement, which ties in more to lefty politics. Maybe I'm conflating 'generic' right wing views with libertarianism, which is very much concerned with each individualism.

Feminism fights violence against women, right?

It is not feminism's fault that so much of the violence that is meted out to women is sexual.

I blame the patriarchy for that one.