Why is feminism seen as a bad thing by other women??

In fairness, there is suffering all over the world, but women (and by extension, children) seem to bear the brunt of it.

Sunshine, it doesn't make much sense to me either.

I may post more tomoz but it would appear i have a fever, so will v soon lack clarity and lucidity

Men and women both suffer all over the world I dnt really understand the o Im a women so its worse thing :( But maybe thats just me

Me too AyeRobot with the why thing.

The voice in my head is the voice of a demented toddler.
Sometimes the toddler starts singing the cbeebies Tinga Tinga Tales song
-I ask WhyWhyWhyWhyWhy x 34.

Can you tell I'm all toddlered out

Yes, a fair few..I have to go..DS2 is sat on my lap and I've got to re-settle him.

That is interesting OTheHugeManatee

But afaics feminism is more concerned with the structure than with individual choices.
People will always choose to do something that benefits them. WHY a particular choice is beneficial is dependent depends on the structure around them. It reminds me of certain economic arguments - the job of government isn't to create jobs, it's to create the conditions which create jobs. It's not society's job to force women to show their breasts, but to create the conditions in which women choose to.

That's a bit rambly - but like SF I am starting to here grizzling from upstairs. trying to ignore but distracted...

SGB, great post.

Re the OP. I have never seen feminism as a bad thing, but I might not have always called myself a feminist. Semantically, I associated 'feminist' with 'activist' (as an analogy: I care about the planet and try and turn lights off and recycle, but I wouldn't call myself an 'environmentalist' - that would refer to someone in Greenpeace, or a Green Party member etc)

I don't think like that now about the word feminist but perhaps some others might see the language in that way too.

To me, it's just about asking "why?" and keeping on asking until I arrive at an answer I am happy with. I am sure that it is the same for many, although some stop at "I like it". And yes, then I find myself going "huh?"

I don't think we have nearly as much agency as we think we do, especially white middle and upper class western women who have been brought up in recent times to think the world is our lobster. Certainly the world is not nearly as much ours as many of the males around us, if you spend the next week watching.

SF - that's a fair point, with some caveats that I shall ponder whilst I make a cuppa. Did many feminists make that point?

I think that what a lot of feminists object to is that many women use sex as a bargaining tool with men. Strip clubs and (consensual) porn are an example of this. It's a job and a choice of sorts, yes, but ultimately in many cases it's a poorly educated woman's best way of wresting cash from those who have it. From which I deduce that many women are in the sex industry because they have no choice due to the imbalance in asset distribution between men and women. Which imho should be the major topic that properly exercises anyone working in levelling disparity between the sexes.

Don't forget that many men in the world are also subject to exploitation and very poor working conditions- eg Chinese cockle pickers, Nigerian gold miners, usually due to exactly the same reasons: being extremely poor and it being their best chance of becoming solvent. It is really a choice to work in these extremely poor conditions when you factor in their alternatives?

I would really like to know whether there would be any women left working in the porn industry or "personal" services if men and women had equal access to good educations and good jobs and the logistical ability to stay in them once they have children. I suspect there would be very few.

SolidGoldBrass, Chibi, Jericho, Stewie, Sinical...thanks for your responses, not ignoring you...I have to go in a sec, DS2 is just about to start his 10.30(ish) nightime stirring...

I would say I have many feminist views but would never say I am a feminist, if you see what I mean by the difference. The term feminist covers a really wide range of view, some which are way to far out for me, so I don't use that term to describe myself.

And to not tell me that my opinion is due to social conditioning, or brainwashing. Essentially making excuses for my bad non feminist thoughts i.e. they couldn't possibly be my own, I've been conditioned into thinking that.

I find this uncomfortable as well. One of the pitfalls of over-focusing on structural analysis is that you can end up discounting individual agency - in effect saying we are all just automata conditioned by our environments. Telling people their thoughts are wrong and produced not by them but by an oppressive ideology is arguably just as likely to come from a Marxist as a feminist but to me it carries the same insinuation of wanting to control another's thoughts whichever political system it comes from, and however well-intentioned it is.

If you do not like strip clubs would have to point out you do not have to go in them.
Easy money and some women (and men) enjoy working in them sooo ... Its not all bad :)

Actually, I've just remembered, and it's from memory so it's a general gist.

There is a view, and it was also made as a statement of fact, that men did not ejaculate on womens faces pre the porn era, and that porn has made this practice more mainstream.

My question would have been, well how do you KNOW that this wasn't mainstream prior to the visual porn era?

feminism strip club ......... O yeahh I can see the match! :)

OK. I'll look out.

OK Aye. Thanks for taking me seriously btw..I'll look at the thread with the generalisations I wanted to counter, and I'll get back to you..

'.well you tell me why strip clubs are ok then. In a way which doesn't patronise, annoy or infuriate me.'

I could tell you personally why, in a way that didn't patronise. But I couldn't tell you in a way that didn't annoy or infuriate you, because I imagine you would never, however I dressed it up, accept that strip clubs were OK.

Ask. And do it the genuine spirit of enquiry. Snidey questions get snidey answers.

Try one on here. I'll either answer or tell you why you might get the responses you expect. No side, just honest appraisal.

That's the thing though Aye..I want to ask feminists stuff because I find some of their sweeping generalisations mind blowing. I want to question it, but some (most, not all) seem to feel threatened by it. They seem to be suspicious of my motives and I keep thinking 'why'?

OK, so I get this is t'internet, and I could be some hairy arsed bloke on a wind up, but so could anyone on here. But it's the assumption, that because I'm questioning and disagreeing with feminists I MUST be winding them up, or a man..as I've been called many times (although I admit my name doesn't help!).

I'm a big girl and I can take the crap that's thrown at me, but it's always interesting how some feminists respond to me. I might chuck in the odd snide comment here and there, but it's nothing compared to how many have been aimed at me.

.well you tell me why strip clubs are ok then. In a way which doesn't patronise, annoy or infuriate me.

SF: Ever wanted to learn about a new hobby/skill/campaign? Did you find when you did so that some of the people you asked were helpful and friendly, some less so (perhaps because they were busy or having a bad day) and some pointed out to you that there was the equivalent of a manual or FAQ over there? Some people, everywhere, have more patience and tact than others. And some newbies, no matter what the situation, take absolutely everything personally because they think it's all about them no matter what.

sigmundfraud - for me, feminism is not about making choices, and all choices being equivalent and so above criticism. i don't see criticism is not a silencing technique, either

feminism is for me a system of knowledge which allows me to analyse and interpret the power structures as they exist in society. this makes it sound fancier and more academic than it is; one of the powerful things about it is that it is accessible to anyone that wants to engage with it, regardless of education or how much reading they have done

i see all human relationships and society as predicated on the oppression of women, and constructed so as to maintain that oppression. some behaviours which reinforce these patterns of dominance are more damaging than others- i.e. the choice to comply with beauty standards vs the normalisation of violence against women

all of these behaviours ultimately serve the status quo, to greater or lesser degree

being aware of this does not make me immune, like everyone else i have absorbed and am soaking in, cultural norms, and they shape my expectations of normal, and it is a conscious effort to resist. sometimes, i don't, for many reasons.

so, i will critique the cultural expectations of beauty, i will not tell you you must not wear lipstick.

i will engage with your choices where they impact on mine - your choice to be an empowered pole dancer has a direct impact on my choice to not be fetishised, or my sexuality commodified

Why isn't it a non-feminist's job to tell explain to me?

Not that I'd expect it or want it - but why?

Btw, if you genuinely struggle with reading books (I do), lurk around - people constantly explain things as they go, if you stick around long enough you will happen on it.