not sure what to title this but it's to do with ejaculation

I'm deeply uncomfortable, politically, with our sexuality being influenced and manipulated by a misogynistic and violent institution.
Hear, hear, Beachcomber

First, Charbon, great posts and I totally agree with what you're saying.

Second, I don't want people who are asking their male partners about this to shout at me, but isn't asking 'why do you like coming on my face?' going to elicit the same kind of answers as: 'does my bum look big in this?'

Third, I am now hugely worried by what the porn industry is going to be telling my daughter is normal and commonplace ten years from now. Are we going to let an industry based on female exploitation tell our children what they ought to accept as normal sexual behaviour? Fine if they want to experiment and find their own way to things, but deeply, deeply worrying if the porn industry is pressuring them into something en masse.

I agree with other posters that the porn industry doesn't 'invent' any sexual act, but what it can and does do is popularise and 'normalise' acts, and it seems to me that the stakes are constantly being upped. Men used to just brag about getting a women to sleep with them, now it's whether they have persuaded their girlfriend to have anal sex, and jizzing on her face. What's next? As I see it, this is MEN's sexual agenda being forwarded in a large scale way, not women's.

I think it makes a lot of difference whether a couple is in a long relationship where they've (one assumes) worked out an agreement on what their sex life is going to be like, versus a couple who don't know each other well.

What the original message said was she is much more sexually adventurous than I am and she was saying that she thought it was part of normal sexual behaviour, that most men found it a turn on and most people she knew thought it was normal...I was trying to discuss it with her and point out that her sexual encounters are out of the norm, definitely aren't encounters within a loving relationship.

What disturbs me about this isn't what committed couples are doing, but the fact that if women and men have sex without much of a relationship, it's something the men expect to do quickly. And the women expect to let them.

I think we are all talking at cross purposes here.

There seem to be posters who think that because what gets known in porn as 'facials' are considered misogynistic by certain other posters, that that means that we are saying that your partners are misogynists/want to degrade you/humiliate you. I can understand how you could take it that way.

But that isn't what we are saying, or certainly it is not what I am saying.

I'm saying that this particular act has been popularized and normalized through porn.

The vast vast majority of porn is aimed at men. The vast majority of porn is not about presenting sexuality (of either men or women) in a realistic fashion. Porn is sensationalist and extreme. It is also often extremely violent and abusive towards women. Women are subject to verbal, physical and emotional abuse in porn. Women are described in insulting, abusive, degrading, racist, sexist, sneering, violent, hate-filled language.

Women are routinely filmed having men ejaculate on their faces (often several men at once). These women are described in porn in abusive and derogatory language such as 'cum drinking whores'. There are often references made about women choking on ejaculate. There are references made to women loving the degradation of having a man jerk off on them.

These are not mutual acts of a loving couple who respect and care for one another.

Individuals, who, in their private lives choose to engage in this act, and who are both enthusiastic about doing so, and clear and happy in their motivation and sense of boundaries, no doubt feel that what I have said above about porn/degradation does not concern them.

However for every couple who are secure and happy in their choices, there will be other couples who don't have such a safe relationship in which to express their sexuality. Perhaps because they are young or perhaps because their partner pressures them to participate in acts they have seen in porn that they are not comfortable with. And there will be women feeling they aren't being allowed the space to decide if this particular act is for them because 'everybody does it' due to it having been normalized in porn and they are being told it shows acceptance of their partner/that they are not a prude/that they are liberated/that they are sexy/etc.

I'm deeply uncomfortable, politically, with our sexuality being influenced and manipulated by a misogynistic and violent institution.

Thank you Charbon for saying what I could not articulate. Also thanks to Catgirl for doing the research, albeit anecdotal.

I was thinking about eroticism earlier as I entered a manual carwash. It was an erotic experience in itself and I remembered having showers where we washed beforehand. I loved that much more than the 'sex'. It brought us together as a couple. Would love to do that again. Sharing of washing each other with sponges. mmmmm.......

Asked him. He did look at me like

He likes it because it's 'rude' apparantly

As for the second question he said he has no idea what "men as a group" like

Then he wandered off to play Skyrim

DH likes the fact that we have an 'anything goes' sex life, and that we are both open and adventurous . He says it makes a 'great visual', but he equally enjoys the kick he gets from the view when he is returning the favour. His words.

DH doesnt watch porn. He viewed a few films as a teen, but its not his thing. He doesnt like strip clubs, porn mags or any of that jazz. He has never discussed this with a man, so doesnt know how it is viewed by 'men as a group'. He thinks you should ask men who watch a lot of porn.

DH is in the bath, but when he comes down I will ask him as I am interested now.

I think he will say that it seems a bit domineering, possibly a bit territory marking and that he likes the fact I appear to like his cum (sorry if thats abit tmi). All things which could be degrading in a bad relationahip, but are not in ours as it is based on a lot of respect etc. Plus its not like this is a big deal for him or a major part of our sex lives.

On the second question I think he may be a bit about "men as a group"

Any way I will ask and update

I mentioned already upthread that I can't take hormonal contraception so my partner doesn't ejaculate inside me. I asked him what he liked about it and he said it's nice to feel accepted by me, that his semen on me doesn't disgust me. He doesn't particularly prefer to ejaculate on my face any more than any other part of me, and he certainly doesn't feel feel as if he's thinking anything degrading while he's doing it.

Did my partner learn it's something men-as-a-group enjoy any more than he learned sex is something men-as-a-group enjoy? I don't really know if it's that simple.

He concedes he probably did realise it was something you could do through watching porn.

Anyway, back to one of the points of this thread. Those of you partnered with men who enjoy doing this, what do they say about why they enjoy it and where they first learnt that this is something that men-as-a-group enjoy? I'd be really interested in men's responses to that.

I don't think anyone's saying "don't ask why". We're saying "don't assume it is something which is degrading just because you find it so or some men portray it as so."

Maybe some people were able to talk about sex. That's your experience. Not mine. Why would you find that insulting?

I think the problems here is confusing common with normal. By the same token homosexuality would not be 'normal' but we know it is.

The issues here is whether or not women are enjoying it and doing it of her own voilition.

Alos, I think the assumption that men aall like this is pretty damaging. You end up with women expecting it to be expected of them, men not brave enough to say no and no one is happy.

or 'dissonance' even

Thanks for the typo check! I must have written the word 'disonnance' a thousand times in my lifetime

I really find it laughable and a bit insulting that there's this belief that it's only become acceptable to be open in discussions about sex in recent years, or that people found it difficult before the nineties to be open with their partners about their needs and desires. That's just not my experience within my peer group of women, or in people I've interviewed within my age group.

I don't think it's enough if you're a political person with a concern for greater society to say 'It is happening, let's not ask why'. If that maxim were applied to the 2004-2008 boom in lapdancing clubs for example, activists I engage with would never have successfully campaigned for the licensing laws of 2009 that have seen the boom's demise. I'm not into Ivory Tower feminism either, hence I ask questions, campaign and get out there, listening to how society is shaping people's choices and doing something with that information, but like I said on a thread the other day, debating those questions on an internet site that is popular with millions of parents concerned about their lives and those of their children, is an unnecessarily derided activity. It all helps.

Also, it's not just ejaculation on a face that's talked about between men as something degrading. EVERY sexual act can be talked about in a degrading way, and is. From female orgasm to cunnilingus to blow jobs and everything else. There are men who see sex as a way to degrade women.

Any shot showing ejaculation is refered to as the money shot - it doesn't matter where it "lands".

I think any action can be degrading to someone but it isn't the action that degrades it is the person, and what may be degrading in one situation may not be so in another. A kiss can be degrading in an abusive relationship, but you wouldn't say kissing is degrading. I suppose its a bit "guns dont kill people" but you see what I am trying to say.

I do think porn has made it more popular. But it has also been repsonsible for making female ejaculation more popular as this is now a large staple of mainstream porn (Although of course not as much as the male orgasm which yes is the most important thing) but I suppose it is no bad thing the female orgasm (or a part of it) has begun to be more important in sexual culture.

For me the "why" is that I do think it is a dominance thing which works in our relationship. It is an occasional thing, not a regular event. I wouldn't like to say it is the same in every ones elses.

'Sigmunda, the 'evidence' of the origins of this comes from analysis of what was featured in mainstream porn pre-1990 and also from the testimonies of people who were sexually active before the internet. This is common methodology in all social research. Do you have research or anecdotal evidence that contradicts this'

No I don't Charbon. It may be common methodology, but for me personally, I feel that the groups asked are too small and don't give a broad enough view. I appreciate it would be difficult to ask huge volumes of society.

I really think there is a massive difference between how we talk about sex now and how we used to talk about sex. I am only 29 but sex certainly was never discussed in my house or the house of anyone I knew at school. Maybe it depends where/how you grew up, but we were definitely not talking about it.

Men on forums might find it degrading - these are not all men though. Men who DON'T find it degrading probably don't go on forums saying "I like coming on my partner's face because it makes me feel close to her". So you're really only seeing the side of men who are into discussing the degradation of women.

It's also not true that female ejaculation doesn't come up in general porn searches. The vast majority of men go to free porn clip sites like pornhub or youporn and on the front page right now there were two videos of women ejaculating. I'm not arguing that male ejaculation is not the bigger thing in porn, it definitely is, but neither is female ejaculation that niche.

When it comes right down to it, we can sit and analyse why or how or if it's ok that this is happening. It IS happening. I am not too into ivory tower feminism - I'd rather do something in the real world to help women make better choices that are right for them. I think that's the only way we're ever going to have true equality.

Oh and the term you're looking for is "cognitive dissonance" not "dissidence".

Yes and it's the psychology of why men want to do it that is interesting.

The question remains. Why?

Which is a tangled one, evidently, because you can't say 'it stimulates the erogenous zones'. Physical explanations are easy, psychological ones more tricky

'Yes, Charbon and any woman who disagrees with the radical feminists on here is sneered at as unintelligent and ridiculous and in thrall to men and focusing too much on the personal. What's the point? Both sides are equally capable of being horrible to each other and I really think we don't need to be.'

Exactly.

Re: did it happen before porn. Is the Pope Catholic? And in fact, Catholics have been doing this shit for centuries

Yes, mainstream porn does feature this. As has already been explained, it's what porn producers and punters call 'the money shot'. Mainstream porn is also full of sex that is packaged as being degrading to women - it's actually used as a selling point. That's what I mean about cognitive dissidence. If the porn producers include it because they think it's degrading and that consumers will get a kick out of it, why would you not see that? Female ejaculation is niche. You'd have to use it in a search term to find it, whereas male ejaculation will be found just by using 'porn'.

For me (and this is personal) it is not individual sexual acts in and of themselves that are objectifying of women, it is the context in which they operate. This is the difference between the personal and the political. I said upthread that it is not about prurience about people's private sex lives and what they enjoy, but about asking ourselves questions about the origins of a sexual act and whether it has entered the repertoire simply because many individuals enjoy its erotic benefit or whether they feel pressurised to consume.

This is also why many posters have queried what it is about this act that makes it enjoyable to some men, pointing out that this is the question we ought to be asking. Men on forums are quite clear about why - and write about how much they enjoy humiliating women. So the question is, what do 'other men' who do this, enjoy about it? Why do they want to do it? Do they feel pressure to do it and where does that pressure come from? Why have men been socialised to normalise this as something men as a group ought to enjoy? Where did that socialisation come from?

I also don't understand why you have this idea that people have only 'recently' become comfortable talking about sex and what turns them on. If this was 1970, I might agree with you but my generation-as-a-group has never felt uncomfortable talking about sex. I think my mother (previous post) was quite avante-garde for her generation having been born in the thirties, but I think this must be yet another urban myth that people born before the eighties or nineties were repressed about sex.

Sigmunda, the 'evidence' of the origins of this comes from analysis of what was featured in mainstream porn pre-1990 and also from the testimonies of people who were sexually active before the internet. This is common methodology in all social research. Do you have research or anecdotal evidence that contradicts this?

'And a lot of them say, no, it wasn't very common 20 years ago.'

I hear what you're saying but there are a fair few 40 year olds around, hundreds of thousands of them. I'm not saying porn hasn't made it more popular, I would even say it's probably true. But we'll never get a full picture of how popular it was pre-porn, simply because it's not possible to ask large enough numbers IYKWIM.