not sure what to title this but it's to do with ejaculation

I think that without patriarchy, there would still be dominant men and submissive women, as there would still be dominant women and submissive men.

Argh crossposted

My question was directed at beachcomber. I think if consent is obtained by coercion/abuse/intimidation/exploitation, that's not real consent.

I think however it is possible that both men and women can equally enjoy, and therefore consent out of their own liking of a certain practice. Even if it's one which I wouldn't choose for myself.

I agree it is complex MyNameIsNotSusan.

I hope you didn't think I was implying that you were trying to sweep misogyny under the carpet! Didn't mean that in a personal way at all - was talking about society in general.

WidowWoman I don't think any of us know what sexuality would be like under a different social order to patriarchy. I would quite like to find out though.

I dont understand, Widow. Are you asking me?

So you're claiming that a woman can't find things to be a turn just because she finds them a turn-on? So a woman, if not conditioned by the patriarchy would only go for vanilla sex, if she'd go for it at all? Seriously?

I agree, Beachcomber. And I am not trying to sweep misogyny under the carpet.

But sexuality is so complex. You can't undo what someone finds a turn-on by telling a man he is a misognynist or a woman that she has been brainwashed by the patriarchy.

Mmmm, I think the whole 'consenting adults' concept is hugely problematic. Or at least it is from a feminist point of view.

Our sexuality is socialized. What we find a turn on is socialized. What we will consent to is socialized.

And what it is socialized by - patriarchy.

And what is patriarchy - it is a system of male supremacy and female oppression.

I think a lot of sexual practices reflect that.

Our view of our own sexuality as women, is constructed by patriarchy - our sexual boundaries and sense of bodily integrity are defined by patriarchal paradigms.

I think 'consenting adults' is used to sweep a lot of misogyny, sexual exploitation, violence against women and abuse, out of our line of vision.

Its the oldest misogyny trick in the book, 'she was asking for it guv'.

Its a classic porn 'cum shot', yes, and I hate porn, mainly because of shots like this - all from a male perspective and dull for women.

But I think a lot of the thrill of sexual acts like this comes not necessarily from degrading or subjugating a woman, but from doing something 'forbidden'. Well, for most of the decent men I have been out with.

And surely 6anything is OK between consenting adults, as long as each person feels OK wit it and especially^ that the woman feels comfortable and in control.

I asked DH what he thought about it, he can't see the point of it and certainly doesn't find it a turn on, but then he's not a user of porn, I suspect that's a relevant factor. To him it would spoil sex, the man has to stop whatever is happening and basically finish himself off by hand then aim at the woman's face, the thought of that does nothing for either of us, it seems very detached as a way of ending sex.

I would never say that a couple were wrong to enjoy it though , I've been told on this very board, more than once, that liking spanking /rough sex are wrong and "worrying" not to mention that there was something bad about my DH , which was nice, obviously.
I don't think that anyone should do things that they don't enjoy, sexually speaking, even if its something that their partner loves - that's the way to resentment, imo unless something is mutually enjoyable, it's not worth doing.

If a man asked me to come on my face as a fantasy, I would be able to discuss it with him.

What sort of man he was would be the deciding factor in how the discussion went.

If I thought he was worth it we would have discussion about how this practice originates in porn. Porn is misogynistic. I am a woman - I do not want to put up with misogyny. So no thanks mate - and here is a copy of Gail Dines 'Pornland'.

Get back to me when you have read it.

"I accept it's probably not so simple if you've not discussed sex/fantasy/acceptability much in a relationship (eg. in the early stages) or if you're unsure how you feel yourself."

Hang on - that's all I'm saying. Sex/fantasy/acceptability should be open for discussion. Not being able to even imagine discussing it at all to me seems sad.

I'm a squirter and frequently do so on DP's face. There is plenty of porn showing women squirting on men's faces, usually called reverse bukkake.

I didn't mean to imply you'd called me frigid - my point was, it's my right to be as un-interested in any sex act as I choose. I was really disturbed you phrased this as question of opinion ('I think that') rather than fact, but perhaps I was misreading. Anyway, that's why I felt the need to stress that there is no ambiguity here - any woman is entitled to refuse consent to any sex act.

In my relationship, yes, it's absolutely ok to say the topic should never be brought up. There is no way my DH could bring up that subject without knowingly offending me. It's very simple. I accept it's probably not so simple if you've not discussed sex/fantasy/acceptability much in a relationship (eg. in the early stages) or if you're unsure how you feel yourself. But that doesn't change the fact that there is nothing bad about my relationship -or YF's relationship - just because we wouldn't want or expect to entertain the question.

I haven't said "consider the idea at all". "Consider" means "being open to give it a go" to me (but then it might be one of those second language things again). I never suggested, nor would I suggest that.

Immediate veto as "no, I would never want to do that" is absolutely ok. Saying that in a relationship the topic never ever even should be brought up to find out how the other feels about it, is a different thing.

Also please don't imply that I've called you frigid. I haven't and wouldn't.

It's not a matter of what you 'think' - it is my right to tell my husband it would not be ok for me to do this!

But other than that - yes, we've talked about it because this thread came up. But even if we'd not talked about it specifically, it would still not be ok with me if DH asked me if I was interested in that sex act - it would show he didn't know me at all and had been putting on a front.

It would be offensive to me, and I enjoy the right under law to be just as frigid an unresponsive as I choose. I happen not to be frigid, but you seem to think unless something has been specifically vetoed, then a man or a woman has a duty to consider the idea not just shoot it down. And actually this is bollocks, IMHO.

sonicrainboom - are you seriously suggesting that there are no female porn producers who do the work behind the cameras, editing, directing, promoting, etc?

Err, I've let dh ejaculate on my face a few times. It was something a bit different and for a little while we both found it exciting. We stopped though, I think both of us realised it was a bit degrading and just never did it again. Then again, I hardly ever give blow jobs any more either.
I can understand how some people can like it though.

I think you'd be completely in your rights to tell your husband that it would be absolutely not ok for you to try this fantasy out.

Anyway - if he knows how you feel about this sex act then it sounds to me like you actually have talked about it. Obviously, suggesting doing something you already made clear you don't like is a bit off.

However, if it hadn't been discussed before, then there's nothing wrong or offensive about bringing it up, to find out how you feel about it and whether you would like giving it a try.

I'm not sure I agree.

On the fact of it, yes, it seems almost too obvious that yes, anyone should be able to discuss sexual fantasies. But if my DH, who knows I am a feminist, knows how I feel about porn, knows how I feel about this sex act - and who's told me he won't watch porn - if one day he said 'so how would you feel about me jerking off on your face, that's always been a fantasy of mine', actually, no, I wouldn't be ok with it. It'd be effectively showing me he'd been putting on an act for the whole time we'd been together.

And it's rubbish to suggest that means I or yueling don't have a 'good working relationship' with our partners.

"I just can't imagine ever having a conversation with someone about if i minded doing that kind of thing."

YuleingFanjo - I actually find it quite sad that you can't even imagine having a conversation with someone about what fantasies you both have and which of these fantasies both of you can imagine to try out or not.

It doesn't mean that I find it sad that you couldn't imagine actually doing it or wanting to do it - it's not my kind of thing either, but I think in a good working relationship it should be possible to discuss sexual fantasies without fear of upset or ridicule.

Being able to say "no" is important, very important. But so is being able to talk about what turns you on.

Why would buying porn from professional makers be a solution?