not sure what to title this but it's to do with ejaculation

"It is not the act that is degrading but the relationships some women (and men) are in. What we need to worry about is that some women do not have the confidence to stand up to men, rather than acts themselves."

Exactly that.

Just to add -

Honestly? I think being disgusted by bodily fluids (not shit and piss, obviously, as they are waste and we are programmed to recoil at them) are prudish and a little bit disgusted by themselves, possibly?.

I have to be honest. I wouldnt have a relationship with a man who was disgusted by my vaginal fluids.

*is NOT putting anyone at risk.

So because some people are coerced into it (and let's face it, people are coerced into a lot of things that are part of a normal sex life), it's dodgy? That makes no sense.

Surely some time ago, blow jobs were seen as something a bit niche and odd. Now coming on a face is seen as odd by some.

It is not the act that is degrading but the relationships some women (and men) are in. What we need to worry about is that some women do not have the confidence to stand up to men, rather than acts themselves.

But when people are so vocal about how disgusting something is, how they must be coerced into participating, how porn is to "blame", it makes the person that enjoys an act feel that perhaps they are doing something "wrong" afterall.

The OP comes across as very judgemental of her friend's single lifestyle and the way in which she is conducting her sexual encounters. As long as she is having safe sex and is putting herself or anyone else at risk where is the problem. Sex doesn't just have a function in a "loving relationship", there is a physical need without the requirement of an emotional one.

Just because something has become popular in porn doesn't mean that people performing those acts should be viewed negatively. Perhaps the acts became popular in porn as a reflection of what people in real life are desiring?

I don't say that I don't believe that women are oppressed, quite the opposite really. That doesn't stop me from being open-minded about people's sexual likes and dislikes.

One person of any gender enjoying a good spanking has nothing to do with people who don't like it being coerced into it. It's just complete throwing out of the baby with the bathwater.

'I think you're getting it arse about face. People being coerced into sex acts is wrong, no matter what particular flavour that sex act is. And people should be empowered to say no.

However, people who like some sex act or another should not be silenced and made feel bad about liking whatever they like.'

That's my point. And I dont think it is at odds with what you are saying, Jericho.

I very much DO believe that women are systematically oppressed, and that very many women are sexually exploited (I work with girls who have been trafficked or are being sexually exploited by gangs). I also believe (and see with my own eyes) the gross sexualisation and objectification of women in our society, and the horribly damaging effect porn has on both men and women (yes, women are the victims in real terms, but what is this doing to male sexuality? I dread to think).

However, I have to reconcile that with my own enjoyment of sex and 'adventurous nature' and the sexual relationship I have with my husband, which is far from vanilla, yet always, always mutually respectful. This is not a black and white issue. It is really easy for women who dont like sex, or prefer very 'safe' sex lives, to say that anything else has been designed by and for the pleasure of men. But what about women like me? Surely we have to have a voice.

WW, you really don't believe there's any systematic oppression of women, do you? You seem so sure all of this is just about what one person likes and another dislikes.

I just can't believe that myself. I wish I did, because it would be so comforting to just say 'oh, it's all fine, there's no issue here'. But I can't. I can't honestly believe that there's nothing untoward going on when a sex act becomes popular in porn, infects and harms women who work in porn, and then becomes popular in couples' relationships.

I'm not trying to make anyone feel bad for liking what they like, but I can't pretend I don't see anything dodgy about, either.

I think you're getting it arse about face. People being coerced into sex acts is wrong, no matter what particular flavour that sex act is. And people should be empowered to say no.

However, people who like some sex act or another should not be silenced and made feel bad about liking whatever they like.

And you can like whatever you like whilst being perfectly aware that not everybody likes it, and also that probably some people are forced into those very acts - but it's people being coerced/forced into anything that should be addressed, not whether one sex act is more conductive to it than another and therefore shouldn't be liked.

You feel silenced and judged by Yellowraincoat - I get the feeling that she feels as silenced and judged in return.

And when other people insist that anyone who objects to certain sex acts, or finds them demeaning, or mock us with phrases like 'clutching their pearls', those of us who don't like these sex acts feel as if we're wrong not to say yes to them and wrong to feel disturbed by them.

It's nice that you think no-one ever forces women to do things they don't want. But I'm not so wonderfully hopeful. We could stop discussing whether women working in the porn industry should be put in a position to get STIs in their eyes and throats, of course - then you wouldn't need to feel (shock horror!) like a 'wannabe porn star' ... and god forbid you feel like that.

I find it problematic that sonicrainboom thinks that "a lot of" women feel they have to do things they find degrading.

Yes, and I wish it wasn't so.
I hear it directly from teen girls, whom I have worked with. I see women discuss it on the internet. Me and my friends feel it ourselves. There is definitely an general attitude out there that you have to try various sexual acts despite not wanting it, otherwise you're a prude, that you should do it to keep your guy happy etc. Women and girls under a lot of pressure. And if you are an economically disadvantaged young women in porn, you're definitely under extreme pressure to do acts you probably don't want.

It's not something we should ignore, and to be worried about it is not "clutching pearls."

When people say that a certain act is demeaning and degrading, those of us who consider it to be a normal part of our sexual relationship are made to feel that we are dirty, shameful or wannabe porn-stars (nothing is further from the truth!)

If the OP and others on here don't want a man, albeit the man they love and share bodily fluids with, to come on their face, no-one will hold them down and force them to - I hope. If its not part of a loving relationship, I can't see that it is any more pervy than oral sex.

If anyone else doesn't see a problem with it, that doesn't mean its because we've been brainwashed by porn or downtrodden by abusive men, it just means we don't mind a bit of a mess and are prepared with a pile of tissues at the ready.

I can't see why it has to be an issue of feminism and women's rights, any more than using any other method of contraception, as that's all it is to me - a way to let him enjoy the moment without the worry of pregnancy.

Is it any better to say 'I hate semen'. I find that an odd attitude. More odd than wanting someone to cum all over you, to be honest!

I am definitely a feminist,. btw. I hate porn - I think it is damaging to women and warping male sexuality.

yellow - when you say discussing is 'judging' and we're 'clutching our pearls', it feels like you're belittling and silencing, TBH.

I do feel there is actually a huge amount of judging going on. The message I'm getting is - if a woman even wants to discuss feeling that a sex act isn't good for women, the message is she's 'sad' because she's not good enough at letting her partner express his 'fantasy', or she's 'clutching her pearls' (ie., being prudish).

I agree it is wonderful that we have moved on from the Victorians and we no longer think sex is dirty or shameful. But does that have to mean that no-one is allowed to say any more than any sex act might be disrespectful or demeaning to a woman?

Where did I say that anyone questioning a sex act should shut up? How on earth have you come to that conclusion?

It is to do with context in that many women don't find it degrading. I don't. Some do. That's fine. Don't do it then.

I find it problematic that sonicrainboom thinks that "a lot of" women feel they have to do things they find degrading. Do men also feel they have to do things they find degrading or is it just weak little women who are unable to speak up?

Can I just say again that I never said you couldn't discuss it? I really don't get why you think I said that.

yellowraincoat, it's not about judging women.

A lot of things done by men to women in porn are popular because it's seen as degrading.
Many men who watch porn will normalize and start to want to do things that many women find degrading.
A lot of women feel that they have to do things they find degrading.

This is a problem, and we should be allowed to discuss it.

That was kinda judgmental too, yellow!

Are you saying if I or someone else even question a sex act, we should shut up - because your belief it's 'surely' just to do with context is more important than anything anyone else has to say?

Obviously not everyone agrees it's 'just' a bit of jizz or 'surely' to do with context - who are you to insist we all accept those opinions as fact?

And Beachcomber, I'm on the BDSM scene and I have never been treated with anything but respect. Of course there's going to be the odd sleazy guy, but it's the same anywhere. In fact, there are fewer sleazy people on the scene I'd say, by a long shot.

There is an awful lot of judging going on on this thread. Who are you to say one act is disrespectful or not? Surely everything is to do with context?

Just because something was popularised by porn or became more mainstream, does that make it wrong? 10 or so years ago, no-one I know was having anal, now it's really normal. Is that wrong too?

My partner comes on my face. My discharge goes all over his face. I don't see either as a disrespectful act. It's not as if either of us are forcing each other.

100 years ago, people would have been shocked by things that are deemed totally normal these days.

It's just a bit of jizz on a face. Unclutch your pearls. If you don't like it, don't do it, but don't sit in judgement on those of us who like it.

Neither DH nor I watch porn, but he has on occasion done the deed on my face. TBH I prefer it to land on my face rather than anywhere lower down due to pregnancy risks and we both usually end up laughing at how far it goes!

Sorry if TMI, but just trying to point out that it doesn't have to by synonymous with porn or degradation, its no worse than him coming in your mouth really, but without needing to brush your teeth afterwards. Each to his own.

feel

sorry am terrible for not previewing.

I think however it is possible that both men and women can equally enjoy, and therefore consent out of their own liking of a certain practice. Even if it's one which I wouldn't choose for myself.

I don't doubt this too.

I'm more talking about what motivates us to desire/enjoy/consent to/allow/submit to/endure without protest, a practice.

Lots of women leave the BDSM scene after finding it to be a total head fuck and a vector for abusers and misogynists. Lots of these women wish they had not consented to things they allowed to happen at the time. They feel violated and that their consent was not meaningful.

They fell their 'consent' was socialized or the result of trauma.

I think socialization is a form of coercion - one of the strongest and least escapable/hardest to resist forms there is.

I also think female sexuality is co-opted/appropriated by masculine paradigms of sexuality (porn, prostitution, stripping being very obvious examples but this also happens in private situations).

I have no idea what sexuality would be like if we didn't live under patriarchy. Radical feminist thought is that there would be no subs or doms of either sex, as domination and submission are patriarchial (indeed they are patriarchy).