it's not Narnia, it's the Feminist Section!

But vaginal intercourse can be problematic. Because it's gender normative. Most women do not orgasm solely through penetration. It's excludes lesbian relationships. It alienates women who cannot orgasm through intercourse.

As for bras. I know men with larger breasts than me. They don't have to be restrained by bras. So why the hell should I? I choose to wear one, but that's because I'm used to them. But why should anyone be forced to wear one because that's what the patriarchy dictates?

I've yet to meet a feminist, in any branch of the word, tell women off for wearing pretty shoes. Or tell women they can't wear make up. I've been encouraged to think about why I wear it. I still identify as a radical feminist.

And please stop discrediting radical feminist views as "extremist".

Tunip - the argument is that it shouldn't be "women's interests" but is of interest to everyone. I think they're in need to pull that particular stick out of their backside, too, tbh, but can follow their argument.

If an article about any women's issues is published in the main section without the label "women's issue" it wouldn't surprise me if it reached a wider audience.

Stars - throw as many biscuits at me as you like. I'm still fairly new to this part of MN, I have not read tons of feminist literature yet, and my knowledge of "radical feminism" is only vague so far.

Also, I do find your aggressiveness rather offputting.

Do I have to do a thread trawl now, to throw up a few postings which I would consider extreme to make you happy? I can do that. But I have an ilk you'll just throw more biscuits at me anyway. Especially as you get impatient when it takes me more than 20 minutes to reply. After ten. I might as well have fucked off to bed already for all you know.

I wonder about those men who supposedly believe in equality but wouldn't read the women's section in G2. That doesn't sound to me like being put off by the label feminism, it sounds like being a little bit sexist, even if they'd never admit it, and assuming that something that is sold as 'women's interests' can't possibly have anything that will be of interest to them.
People I know who are genuinely for equality, IME, tend to be quite interested in other people's struggles even if they don't have anything to do with them.

Stars - you don't need to throw bombs to be an extremist. Extremist just refers to being at the extreme end of a spectrum as opposed to moderate/middle of the road.

I agree that evil man hating hairy lesbians are straw feminists, and the majority of people who identify as feminists probably aren't men hating hairy lesbians (and no, I've no problem with hirsuteness nor homosexuality at all) - however, I've read feminists saying without irony that if you want to be a feminist you can't be in a heterosexual relationship, that vaginal intercourse is in itself problematic even if consensual, that wearing bras, make up, pretty shoes is wrong.

These are extremist ideas, which have been stated by people identifying as feminists. Of course they're being used to ridicule the movement. But it's disingenuous to claim that they don't exist.

Sadly a lot of people think of the extremist ideas first when they hear the word "feminism", and that's what puts them off (as I used to be put off by it).

I'm a feminist, I have an extreme fringe.

I don't know that I am normal, but I will come out as feminist if you like :)

WHAT extreme fringes?

And if you say "radical" feminists, I am throwing the whole biscuit barrell at you.

For a long time I struggled with identifying as feminist because I was under the misapprehension it only denoted the more extreme fringes. I don't think I'm the only one.

I don't think it's wrong to state the idea that "Some people who support and are very much in favour of some feminist ideas are put off by the label "feminism", if only to stimulate discussion and examine how much one can agree or disagree with this statement, is it?

WidowWadman, please, please, PLEASE show me the feminist extremists?

Show me where we commit hideous crimes against someone else because of their gender?

Show me where we incite violence against those who don't follow our way of life?

Show me ANY extreme feminist.

I'm sick of the feminist tag being labelled "extremist". Because, the fact of the matter is "extremist" is applied in order to demerit the feminist cause. In the same way "hysterical" was used to oppress women who dared to speak out in the 19th century. In the same way the straw feminist stereotype is used to paint us as evil, man hating, hairy lesbians. It's getting a bit fucking old.

the word "feminist" only turns people off because our meeja and general culture has done such a great number on us all. "oh I'm anti-sexist but I'm not like those feminists who are angy/mean/bitter/shagless" - well, who says that they are all those perjorative things?

yeah, people who want to preserve the status quo, that's who.

I get that much more clearly now that I live in the US, where President Obama's (right-of-Cameron) policies are described as SOCIALIST! COMMUNIST! ANTI-AMERICAN! by the right wing here. I spent ages thinking, well, a bit of socialist thinking might repair this damaged, failing attempt at a welfare state... and then realised that over here "Socialist" is an insult on a par with "Stalinist" or "Nazi". Culturally over here, to call something 'socialist' is to insult, not describe it. That's how people act towards 'feminist' - well fine, but I think it can be reclaimed at a word. It's just a descriptor of a progressive movement, after all.

Remember, the word "queer" used to be an insult, a condemnation, and it was successfully reclaimed. The more 'normal' people that 'come out' as feminist, the faster it will be reclaimed. I'm feminist and I don't care who knows it.
And I wear makeup and have TWO men in this house wot I passionately adore, so ... erm... nyer?

So the very word "feminism" is extremist then, is it?

I believe the feminist label does happen to turn some people off though. I know men who for example wouldn't read the women's section in G2 as it is clearly labelled as not for them, whilst being very much against sexism and for equality.

I guess it's the same problem as with any other philosophy - if it gets too extremist it starts hurting its own cause.

Equalism was used against the suffragettes. It only ever appears to silence feminists. Movements like socialism which positively campaign for equality still need strong pressure to include women. So we still need feminism

The way I feel about 'equalism' is:

show me it. Show me where the equalists march in the street, show me where the equalists get laws passed to protect the vulnerable, show me the prominent equalists talking about equal pay, paternity leave, stopping human trafficking.

Show me these equalists who are making the world so much better than the mean old feminists who probably don't shave and definitely hate men. Those nasty angry lezzers.

Oh, you can't? Because they don't exist?

Well then I'll stick with feminist, ta. That gets shit DONE.

I firmly believe that Patriarchy Hurts Men TOO and because PHMT I am a feminist. And my DH is a feminist. And my male friends are feminists. Because feminism is for everyone, and improves the world for everyone. If it starts with women, well, that's because women are the historically oppressed and subjugated gender. Liberate women and you liberate the world.

Thanks SardineQ, you have put how I feel about feminism.

I consider myself a feminist. I dont think there is such a thing as the wrong type of feminist. We are all human beings with flaws and differences. It is like any other group, we are individuals striving for the same thing.

Thanks JaneMare

I think the problem with equalism is that there is so much inequality - here are around the world - where do you start? What does it mean?

Feminists are focussing on the things that negatively impact on women here and around the world. It doesn't mean they don't care about other things - of course many people who identify as feminist also identify as having a certain political affiliation, being a disability rights activist, contributing to charities which help young people of both sexes in deprived areas or whatever it might be.

But for the the equalist idea is unfocussed and vague and there is always the difficulty that people will demand action on certain things and women's difficulties will get put to the end of the list again.

Fortunately feminism has a positive effect for other groups due to the things they are after. So working to eg break down strict gender roles if good for women but also for men who are constrained by them.

IMO anyway

Sexism is bad for men if they don't want to conform to the accepted gender norms.

The norms they are expected to conform to could be thought of as not as bad, but it doesn't mean that they are not being oppressed a bit.

Depends if you think of oppression as a big general thing, or if you think that it is built up of many many small-medium-large-sized things, most of which are in one direction but some of which can be in the other direction.

THINK.