it's not Narnia, it's the Feminist Section!

Tunip - I didn't say 'nasty feminists' at all. They were your words. But, no of course I can't 'link' to all of those statements I had indicated. To suggest I could is absurd, as it means hours of time finding threads which are lost in the archive of MN, if they are still there.
I don't know how long you have been around the FS, or how well you have read it, but if you had any reasonable experience you may not be so confident in your challenges.

What's extreme? And from what norm?

Stars - what you don't seem to be getting is that I'm not talking about radical feminism, but about feminist stances which I feel to be extreme. If they happen to be coming under the radical umbrella, fair enough, but it wasn't my intention to call radical feminism extremist. I couldn't as I don't know enough about what counts as radical and what as not, to make a judgement. The only one who continuously brings radical feminism into the argument, is you.

If you fail to see the examples Panfriedstardust mentions , or e.g. things like the idea that the depiction of female nudes in art is all about oppression as extreme than I can't change that. But stop accusing me of saying things I haven't said, please

Pan, a rapist is a rapist whether tried or not. Do I have to go over the innocent until proven guilty thing again? If someone nicks your wallet out of the jacket you have slung over a chair and you see them run off, it is still a thief that you see run off, even if they don't get apprehended by the police. Innocent until proven guilty means that the prosecution ( the Crown) has to prove their case against you in a court of law beyond all reasonable doubt before you can have punishment inflicted against you for that crime. Hence the terrorism kerfuffles that have been going on.

Besides, one feminist does not speak for all. Just like one man does not speak for all men, despite numerous attempts on here and irl.

Hang on, who pissed Pan off last time?

Radical is not another end of the spectrum, FFS. Radical, and can we please, please, PLEASE drill this in, purely means root. So radical feminism is about getting to the root of women's oppression. Eg, the patriarchy. So our discussion may be a little more in depth than that of liberal feminists. But not more extreme.

""I just want political, social and economic equality for women, all women everywhere."

Yes. I think, perhaps, the difference is that some people think it has happened already because they have done OK, some people think it will magically happen, some people think that their choices are made outwith a vacuum, some think it's all gonna come good because we have a few women in board positions and once had a female PM, some think that we should agitate a bit (but not too much), some think that lobbying for a change in the law will do it and some say fuck this, let's start again.

I don't wish to call you a liar, or anything. Also, please, what word can I use as opposite for "moderate" without offending you?

Sorry, I'm not a native speaker, so if I inadvertently have used an offensive word instead of one which means "at one end of a spectrum rather than in the middle", please accept my sincere apologies. I'd be grateful if you could point out a less offensive word. I have purposely not said "radical feminism" as I haven't looked too much in depth into what radical feminism entails. So I don't want to incorrectly call everything that would fall under the "radical" umbrella "extreme", if there are possibly also viewpoints in there which aren't.

Stars - I can point to extreme feminists who advocate no male role in raising children - they should be banished elsewhere ( not sure where, tho'). I can point to feminists who 'tell women off' for wearing high heels ( nice shoes?) and wearing make up. I can do the same for feminists who accuse other women of letting the side down by enjoying PIV. Ditto, for having the nerve to suggest that being accused of rape doesn't always mean that the accused isn't automatically guilty. And to proffer this heritical postion makes one a 'rape apologist'.

All of these gifts have been offered by posters in the FS. So to suggest that we have to look into a weirdy, MRA-based land to find these views is naive. ime.

I've explained how you're discrediting radical feminism. you keep calling it "extremist".

THAT is discrediting every radical feminist that posts in this section, every radical feminist that campaigns for change. Every radical feminist who battles for women's rights on a day in, day out basis.

What do you actual mean by "discrediting"? And if you don't feel like explaining, how do you expect anyone to get it? This type of discussion (if you can even call it that) is a prime example of what I find deterring.

It's just aggressive putting down.

Northeast "I just want political, social and economic equality for women, all women everywhere."

That's pretty much the same as I want. Nothing extreme about that at all.

You may not have been posting regularly, but you were definitely posting. Unless you wish to call me a liar, or crazy.

And Aye, I think WidowWadman is trying to say radical feminism = extreme feminism. Or, at least, that's what the posts say...

I don't really get what "extreme" means in this context.

Stars - Have you now? I started posting in here more regularly only in November 2011, and still very tentatively. There's a handful of older threads which I posted in, probably picked up via "last 15 minutes", but I was for a long time very wary of this section.

Of course since November gives you 3 months - for me that's a short time.

WidowWadman, you've been posting here for over a year. I've definitely seen you about before. A long time before.

Right now, I can't deal with an argument.

But don't go discrediting radical feminism just because you don't agree with it. It took me a long discussion with several members of this community to get it. But don't expect us to explain it to those who discredit it.

"I am sitting on my hands to avoid typing something that would get me banished from this section for evermore." from sherlock above..

I am sooo with you.

Vaginal Intercourse - yep, can be problematic depending on circumstances, but needn't be always/

Bras - I haven't been forced to wear one, nor do I know anyone who has been forced to wear one. Straw argument

Make up - here's one example - maybe Bindel doesn't say as much as that women shouldn't wear make up, but the reasons she gives for why she thinks women wear make up show a very very narrow field of view. (And also totally ignores that there's plenty of makeup wearing men around)

Also I did not intend to discredit radical feminism. I repeat: I'm still only beginning to read into the whole thing. In general, it seems to me that a lot of the ideas which are used to build straw feminists for ridicule purposes are drawn from radical feminism.

Also, radical feminism (in my limited reading) covers a lot of things I simply cannot identify with, because I feel that they are too extreme. You're failure to recognise that these ideas are extreme, don't make them any more moderate.

You know, sometimes I think that feminists might as well be hung for a sheep as a lamb and just go full on for advocating death for rapists and serial domestic violencers. The press couldn't get much worse and then at least some of them would not be in a position to cause harm to women again.

FFS, taking the odd rhetorical flight of fancy as some extremist agenda is Icke territory. Feminism is often about theory as much as practice and I can guarantee that there is no underground movement advocating terrorism against men, although given the multitude of scenarios on this thread I am not above advocating rising above conditioning and advocating a them or us situation.

Extreme views in relation to feminism are only seen as such because there has been such a backlash. I watched the Depeche Mode documentary on breaking America the other night and was taken aback (as were the others that were watching with me) by the gender ambiguity that surrounded them. We are much more polarised now and it is a Bad Thing. Feminists (in the main) want to see the end of that polarisation. It's not being "as good as men", it's being equal to them. As women. As human beings. Default feminism only gets you so far. And is only an option for white, western and largely middle class or greater women anyway. Feminism means recognising that women are people too and that fashion and the societal norms of today are not those of tomorrow.

Northeast, I gathered.

My point was, it's only the patriarchy that dictates we have to wear a bra. As far as I'm concerned, women can wear bras for any reasons whatsoever. Mine aren't affected by the presence or lack of a bra... Just feels more streamlined for me.

Might ask OH to wear a bra for a week or so...

stars only the boob bit of my post was directed at you, not the rest.

stars my boobs hurt if I don't wear a bra!

I just want political, social and economic equality for women, all women everywhere.

That's all. Not too much to ask is it? No reason to be slagged off or called an extremist. Not hysterical or unreasonable, just pretty simple and straightforward, why does it cause such a furore and so much anger. Because it disrupts the status quo.

WidowWadman, I saw you posting in here long before I started... I started, under a different guise in 2011.

And I got impatient because you responded to the post after mine, repeating your "extreme feminists" claptrap, before replying to me.

Widow I don't see the relevance of that to your point about the label feminism though. Are you saying we shouldn't call anything feminism because then men will assume it has nothing to do with them? Because if so, I think Blackcurrants' post of 13.03 says it more eloquently than I ever could.