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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

it's not Narnia, it's the Feminist Section!

205 replies

JaneMare · 13/02/2012 17:21

i thought i'd start a thread for those of us who don't normally post in here, so we can chat without derailing (any further Angry) the thread about strip clubs.

shall we stay then? Wink

OP posts:
Panfriedstardust · 15/02/2012 09:54

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StewieGriffinsMom · 15/02/2012 09:46

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Panfriedstardust · 15/02/2012 09:36

Tunip - the request for 'evidence' isn't absurd in itself - but it would be simply impractical to recover any of the posts/views to which I refer. Accept, or don't accept those views as being expressed here over time. Quite why I woud wish to make any of them up is a bemusement.

TunipTheVegemal · 15/02/2012 09:14

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WidowWadman · 15/02/2012 08:51

Stars - no problem with pointing out oppression and trying to overturn it, but I think where it's going too far is, when there is oppression is detected also in places where there is none.

To take the PIV example - I don't doubt for a second that there's plenty of girls and women who actually don't enjoy it much, and more or less only do it because it's expected of them/they feel pressurised into it. That's a form of oppression and very very wrong indeed, and it'd be bonkers to argue otherwise. And of course people should be empowered to only consent to things they actively enjoy. I find it very important that people are taught that PIV is not the be all and end all, that it's ok to set boundaries, that there's plenty of fun to be had without it, and that if they want to do it, how to do it safely.

However arguing following on from this, that PIV is inherently problematic, even if it is between consenting partners who both enjoy it equally, is taking it too far.

As with the het relationships - nobody chooses to be hetero, gay, bi, or whatever. So to argue that a sexual preference is inherently problematic doesn't make sense to me. I don't know what you mean about "under current norms" - if there's a relationship where one partner is calling the shots and the other is in a subservient role, I don't think that's a healthy thing. And I get very annoyed by people insisting on the classical role model as the only way.

Discuss where any relationships go wrong/are unhealthy. But I wouldn't even go so far to assume that oppression/DV only apply to relationships where there are men involved.

Bras - I've no idea why men with moobs don't wear bras, but obese people are often subject to ridicule, no matter whether they're male or female. So to suggest that braless men with moobs are accepted in society where a braless woman isn't , I'm not quite sure that follows. There are dresscodes in society - and I don't find the bra any more oppressive in that context than, e.g. a man being expected to wear a tie when dressing smart. Bras have multiple purposes - I personally find it painful when I'm not wearing one, and I like wearing pretty ones, because it makes me feel attractive - and there's nothing wrong with wanting to feel attractive. If you find a bra uncomfortable, then it probably doesn't fit properly.

Shoes - my argument is similar to bras there really. Yeah, "killer heels" and painful feet, I kind of see your point. Wearing heels in general, less so. (Especially because flats give me painful feet and legs)

I've read it several times here that people state that once they started looking for it they started seeing sexism/misogyny/oppression everywhere. And I don't doubt that - however, that doesn't neccessarily mean that it really is everywhere, but sometimes simply it is confirmation bias. I fall into that trap myself often enough.

There's plenty of sexism and misogyny around which needs to be addressed and challenged. I don't think it helps to go looking out for more - and, I think that, as I said before, there's a risk of losing those who happily challenge sexism and misogyny where it occurs, when coming up with those theories.

lollygag · 15/02/2012 07:12

Wow,I've missed a good old argument here.Who'd have thought that people would have so much time to discuss Radical Feminism on Valentines Day?

StarsAndBoulevards · 15/02/2012 00:44

Ok, you posted bits of radical feminism. But you "extremified" them. Yes, Rad Fems have the "cheek" to discuss parts of society that, you know, the patriarchy would prefer us to leave the hell alone.

But hey, hows that any different to any other sociological analysis of our society? Is it just because it realises that women are oppressed that people don't like it? Or that we try to get to the bottom of why that oppression occurs? Or that we try and overturn it?

AyeRobot · 15/02/2012 00:32

If you're not picking apart the insidious nature of our culture, which kind of feminist from the list I posted above are you?

AyeRobot · 15/02/2012 00:30

Oh, OK. Sorry, WW.

"If you want to be a feminist you can't be in a heterosexual relationship, that vaginal intercourse is in itself problematic even if consensual, that wearing bras, make up, pretty shoes is wrong."

I'll have a PIV discussion with you if you approach it with an open mind. Given your response on the other thread, I'm not sure it's possible.There is a valid debate to be had there, if allowed.

Heterosexual relationships? Again, there is a valid discussion to be had about het relationships under the current norms. You have to listen, though.

Bras - again, interesting discussion has been had. Why don't men with bigger boobs than mine wear bras? Why are unfettered breasts offensive? Why are breats primarily seen as sexual and need to be encased in ex-sexed garements when their primary function is feeding?

Pretty shoes - non-starter. Heels (and the hateful term "killer heels") is a valid and interesting discussion. Why hobble ourselves? Why be in pain?

I don't think anyone is prescribing anything. Discussing a cultural norm is perfectly reasonable, isn't it? Argue the counter-argument if you like. But anti-women stuff is usually frowned upon, but I'm sure you'll agree with that given your equality of women stance.

Panfriedstardust · 15/02/2012 00:29

< cocoa warming and hot water bottle warming the bed, so I have time..>

Widow - I think you are addressing another poster with your questions?
Basil - well, yes the male ego can be a fragile thing, but I don't see how that;s relevant here. Making stuff up? Okay, yes, you're right I have made it all up. Hope that satisfies?

AnyFucker · 15/02/2012 00:21

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BasilRathbone · 15/02/2012 00:19

The thing is, believing that men and women should be equal, is an extremist viewpoint, once you start picking it apart.

BasilRathbone · 15/02/2012 00:18

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AyeRobot · 15/02/2012 00:17

WHAT DO YOU CLASSIFY AS EXTREME?

Can you hear me?

WidowWadman · 15/02/2012 00:13

Stardust I'm sincerely confused - on the one hand you claim that any of the viewpoints I would call extreme actually don't exist on this board or would be challenged.

On the other hand you say that these viewpoints that I find extreme fall under radical Feminism.

Can you please make your mind up?

I can't be both arguing against a strawmen and existing concepts at the same time, can I?

StarsAndBoulevards · 15/02/2012 00:11

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AyeRobot · 15/02/2012 00:10

Oh, I'm on ignore.

Whatevs.

StarsAndBoulevards · 15/02/2012 00:07

My post was invalid?

Really?

Biscuit

nice silencing tactics, btw. They'd work on someone else.

Panfriedstardust · 15/02/2012 00:05

Ok AF, - time for bed for me.

Panfriedstardust · 15/02/2012 00:05

Oh dear, this is getting a bit 'personal' isn't it? I had posted about fairly clear-cut statements made on this section. If other posters on this thread wish to pretend they hadn't been said, or weren't around at the time, then fine. I was merely pointing out Stars post somewhere up thread was invalid, and said why.

AnyFucker · 14/02/2012 23:56

Pan, you used to be a fair minded poster on the feminist boards, and now not so much

and nope, I ain't kidding

I am giving my observation of the proceedings, just like wot you did

StarsAndBoulevards · 14/02/2012 23:55

He got told off quite a bit, by feminists, didn't he?

Should we be invoking PARD?

StarsAndBoulevards · 14/02/2012 23:54

But you keep describing radical feminism and using it to explain your "extremism".

Radicalism isn't extremism, and it's discrediting to keep insisting that it is. Which you've done, over and over.

And please see Turnip's post. I've yet to see a feminist on here provide any of those arguments. I've yet to see any feminist anywhere use those arguments. In fact, if they did, they'd be corrected.

Panfriedstardust · 14/02/2012 23:54

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AnyFucker · 14/02/2012 23:53

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