it's not Narnia, it's the Feminist Section!

Basil - I dislike the term "extremists" or calling people it - so you are right, I should have referred to 'extreme' views (as I see them).
Evidence? - see above re sheer impracticality.
Axe to grind? My axes are prefectly grinded, ta.

This:

"Equalism doesn't make anyone ask questions - everyone knows they want to be equal. Feminism makes people sit up and notice women aren't already equal."

Yes. Quite so.

Equalism is just wishy washy, don't frighten the horses, we're all equal now bullshit. It ignores the lack of equality in society. It ignores that we're still not on a level playing field. It ignores the backlash. It ignores that every single right women have got, has had to be struggled and fought for and wrung out of the men in power and that those rights have come under constant attack and when they can't be attacked directly, an indirect attack comes. You wanted sexual equality? OK, here it is, only what it means, is ubiquitous hard-core porn with women being portrayed as merely fuck objects. You wanted equality, here it is, men who have beaten up women and children, get to have 50 50 custody of those children, becasue that's equality innit.

It's meaningless.

I liked Blackcurrents post about feminism and equalism - way too late to say it, but I do.

Equalism doesn't make anyone ask questions - everyone knows they want to be equal. Feminism makes people sit up and notice women aren't already equal.

As to extremes - why does it matter? Seriously, why on earth do you care if you honestly believe a view being put forward is extreme? Either you really believe it's extreme, in which case by definition, few will share it, or you believe it's actually getting a lot of agreement and that, for some reason, worries you.

okay. can see this disolving into a game of internet table-tennis, so I'll leave it here.

Is this Pan the same one as the old Pan?

Because if it is, I just want to say TOLD YOU SO

don't be so disingenuous Pan.

Saying someone has said something which that person would not consider a reasonable thing to have said counts as accusing in my book.

Tunip - fwiw I am not 'accusing' anybody of anything. Posters can hold whatever views they like and so long as no-one gets harmed by them I don't give a rat's arse. I was merely pointing out that Stars was inaccurate in her overview of the FS.
( blimey, and we thought the male ego was a fragile creature...).

SensitivityChip - come to MWR! link
It's incredible.
It gets you all fired up and inspired and then you go away and do lots of activism.

Internet debates aren't really what it's all about, though they can help you clarify your thinking.

That's reassuring Tunip, I'm new to this and was a bit disappointed by what I read. I had always felt previously that we were all more or less on the same side but after reading that I felt that views like mine were seen as invalid and even harmful to the feminist cause which I don't think they are at all. Was a bit alienating tbh.

Sensitivity chips link is a perfect example of what I would think is an extreme viewpoint, which is to my taste too condescending and has more potential to deter people from feminism than attracting them.

But after all I'm just a sex-positive fun feminist, I guess and probably lack the right depth of thought. :)

all big political movements have different wings though SensitivityChip. Look at the splits within the Labour or Tory party, divisions within the anti-apartheid movement....
It would be more surprising if there weren't such disagreements. Only the fact that so much of the discussion around feminism is happening on the internet means it is all made visible to people outside the movement and the splits look hugely significant.
Go to a march, though, say a Reclaim the Night, or a massive one like MWR, and you will see feminists of all persuasions, radical and liberal, DM-wearing and high-heel wearing, atheist, Christian and Muslim, all races and social classes, putting aside any differences and marching together.

But there are hardly any "extreme" (I would prefer unusual) opinions posted on here. And when they are there are plenty of people saying "OMG that's nuts" and lots of other people saying hmm that's a new one on me and having a discussion about it.

If people on MN are managing to come in here and somehow only manage to see only an unusual opinion, and not manage to read any of the other posts around that opinion on the thread, or any of the other threads, well I'd think that person was working quite hard to winkle out these posts and had some kind of screen filter or blinkers on. A la me on threads with lots of tories. I'm not ashamed to admit it, I have some insight into what topics do that to me.

"I don't understand why someone saying something once on this topic, and being disagreed with, renders feminism as a movement extreme? All the feminists in the world are not on MN, this is an open forum and people can post what they like, and then things are discussed."

Nobody has said that individual extreme opinions render the whole movement extreme. But that, if first contact with a movement is reading individual extreme opinions it can put off people from wanting to engage with it in the first place.That's two very different things. Is that such an outrageous thing to say?

This sort of thing, including the comments:

radicalhub.com/2012/01/31/fun-with-numbers-the-sex-positive-equation/

It confused me a bit as it seems that the causes different kinds of feminists are working towards contradict each other completely rather than being on different ends of the same spectrum and as a result there seems to be a definite lack of support between the two.

That took me ages to write, loads of posts in the meantime.

I have only seen one of the things on pan's list on here, and I have been here forever.

It is true that occasionally quite surprising ideas are put forward. And the people discuss them. In the case of some of the more leftfield posts even many regs will come along and say WTF.

I don't understand why someone saying something once on this topic, and being disagreed with, renders feminism as a movement extreme? All the feminists in the world are not on MN, this is an open forum and people can post what they like, and then things are discussed.

Thinking about it maybe it's a bit like. When I go on a political thread and one of the more rabid right wingers are there and I think "ha there, they're all horrible evil people, that proves it, some of them pretend they aren't but they are underneath". I think this because I fundamentally disagree with right wing politics and so reading the more hardline posts reinforces my own underlying beliefs. I can't be open-minded about it.

I guess it's the same with feminism. The only reason someone would read one post (out of thousands) and think HA I KNEW IT is one who doesn't actually have feminist beliefs in the first place.

Realise I'm coming in late to this but anyhow, I've been around for donkeys years in MN terms (one name change) and I think the feminism section is great, in fact I love it - even though I lurk more than I post.

Its fantastic we have this space.

Lots of people seem to have a problem with it. Tant pis, as the French would say :).

People seem to be confusing discussion with edicts in this thread rather a lot.

I was reading radfem hub the other night after seeing something linked on this site and was quite surprised at the amount of disparaging remarks about "fun-fems" which I assume means more moderate /liberal feminists who are described incapable of deep thought, "unwilling to give up piv" and playing into men's hands, among other things. I didn't consider there was such a divide tbh. Will try and link if I can find the article again.