Feminism and female sexual submission

I have found a lot of people on the BDSM scene to be very anti-rape, supportive of women within the scene who have been assaulted and very negative (to the point of making them unwelcome at events etc) to people who have been accused of rape. Because a lot of people on the BDSM scene are perfectly capable of understanding the difference between submissive sex and rape.

yellowraincoat, that is one site where I go against the grain and highly recommend reading the comments too.

interesting blog, AyeRobot. I am on the BDSM scene a little bit, tend not to do anything with anyone other than my partner though. There are as many sleazy guys there as anywhere else.

Am not feeling very eloquent tonight, but wanted to share a blog post from I Blame The Patriarchy on which I am still ruminating.

Rape (as victim) fantasies for women aren't really about actual rape, are they?

I think sexual submission has pretty much zero to do with rape. How could it? Rape is sex against the will: part of a bdsm relationship is giving consent so therefore the two are not really the same thing at all.

I suppose for me it is a bit of a problem sometimes that my partner and I are in such heteronormative roles. He dominates me, I am submissive. Neither of us has any interest in switching. Why is it that turns us on and not the other way round?

Sometimes I wonder if it contributes to submission being the norm for women. I don't wonder if it encourages rape though, because I just don't see that as being part of it.

Isn't the whole point about a fantasy that the fantasist is in control? So if you want to, you can fantasise about flying over pine trees on a tropical beach while the suns sets slowly in the east, and part of the pleasure is in your re-making of the world. There's a plausible enough argument that some women fantasise rape because our culture doesn't prove many other images of women having sex, but all day-dreaming must be culturally limited anyway. I'd argue that, by definition, rape isn't fantasy.

Is it the fantasising itself that endangers how people think about rape, or the fact that certain people (men?) know that women sometimes have these fantasies? I think the person having the fantasy must know where the boundaries lie, but those on the outside looking in might extrapolate?

If so you can hardly blame the fantasiser.

'just because rape exists, doesn't mean that some women don't enjoy the role
play scenario of submission or being forced'

Sure, but is anyone really saying the opposite?

This is what I mean about it being two separate arguments, whether it's enjoyable for people and whether it's a concern for feminism.

Revolting Plenty women believe that women who have been raped have been in some way culpable (short skirts, walking home at night, putting self in danger) so I guess it's not a jump to say that some women could think that sexual fantasises about rape might change how women think about rape.

I find that hard to believe but then I find it hard to believe that people shake their heads and go 'silly lassie should have got a taxi, what did she expect' - you know?

Oooh marking my place because I can't think right now because my neighbour is playing thumpy and rubbish dance music.

I agree completely that the blame for rape lies with rapists and that anyone who says anything else causes rape, is making excuses for rapists.

I've been trying to work out hwo to answer this any way except personally, and I can't, so I'll just say the personal one - for me, I couldn't forget about people saying what rape is like, and how they've survived it and been brave enough to talk about it afterwards, and nothing could make me feel less sexy than thinking of that. I think the only way I could find it sexy would be if I forgot all about the things that I associate with rape, if rape just because a term with no real-life meaning for me. And of course I wouldn't want it to do that.

I would hope that any woman who enjoys being sexually submissive is able to do so because she is in a safe relationship with a decent and loving man (or woman) whom she trusts implicitly.
I also think there is a huge difference between that kind of sexual interaction with a new partner / someone you don't know very well versus a long term relationship that has evolved over time to include such play.

Yes, yes! What Wilson said.

But using sexual fantasy as an apology for rape - ie suggesting that what happens inside your head is part of normalising rape - is definitely anti-feminist isn't it??? That's suggesting that women who have rape fantasises are contributing to an 'asking for it' culture.

Women's sexual fantasises don't make rape happen. Rapists make rape happen.

That's how we get this idea of Cupid running around naked pointing a weapon at people.

My head's hurting now thinking about it.

But since the fantasy is your own, and not the seriously traumatic experience of a raped woman, then no, I don't think it's making light of anyone's experience. It's your own experience, without any of the fear, real violence or trauma of a real rape.

And the control aspect is obviously a key difference. Perhaps it's the use of the word 'rape'. By definition the woman has no control in a rape situation, so any fantasy where she does ultimately have control is not rape fantasy at all, but a submission one?

I think the biggest danger from rape fantasies is not so much the dismissing of real victim experiences, but the fact that "most women fantasise about rape" has become so entrenched in our national consciousness that some men use it as an excuse to minimalise unwanted sexual advances culminating in rape at the most extreme. However, I don't see why women should have to change their fantasies to stop that. It should just be clear that rape is never acceptable because the rape fantasy is not, in fact, a rape at all.

RP - yes I do, which is why I haven't taken a firm "all sexual fantasies are valid as long as they don't hurt anyone" stance. However, I am not completely convinced.

To my mind, the most pertinent phrase is "as long as they don't hurt anyone". In sex crimes - rape, paedophilia, etc., there is a victim who was forced or coerced and who is hurt, scared and damaged as a result. That isn't the case with submissive sexual fantasy because the 'victim' isn't being forced or coerced - in fact, they have probably told their partner that this is what they want. Therefore there is consent and the 'submissive' partner has the ultimate control. A rape victim or child has no such control.

Therefore, a fantasy 'rape' isn't actually a rape, so it isn't making light of the real thing because it's comparing apples to oranges IYSWIM. Real rape/paedophilia is an act of violence against an individual. It is not sex. Whereas sexual fantasy is very much about gaining maximum sexual fulfilment to benefit an individual.

And then I think: but if centuries of women being considered men's property and rape within relationships being perfectly legal, if I've internalised all that I would think that, wouldn't I...

So fence sitting happens in my head.

this is really interesting as i consider myself a feminist, yet like to be sexually submissive. In general though, i think the submissive partner is usually the one ultimately in charge and who sets the boundaries, so I dont think its anti feminist at all.