"Bitter" women

This is not imagined. I have been accused of being bitter on a few occasions when soberly relaying my life experiences, by both men amd women. Maybe i am a little more honest about my experiences and feelings in terms of being self aware than is comfortable for the person i am in conversation with.

It seems stock response for those with wider or deeper issues, perhaps they choose to avoid challenging them, opposite to myself. I do not rant or lecture just talk in a sober fashion.

I find it needless and ignorant.

Sorry i haven't explained my point very well :)

When men express anger, it's righteous anger and it's seen as a positive or at least understandable.

When women express it, it's seen as hysterical or bitter.

God yes, this happens all the time. Really pisses me off. As does men telling me to calm down, when I am not raising my voice, not being shouty or aggressive but firmly, clearly and decisively disagreeing with them in a rational way. Then they always say 'calm down, stop being hysterical' to avoid responding to a point - this tends to happen when they have run out of valid points in their argument. I point out I am not being hysterical, and because I am not and they can't say anything to this, they then usually flounce off. Very frustrating. Doesn't ever happen with women though. And the discussions I am talking about are not about feminism.

I get called 'bitter' sometimes when I question the romantic-relationships-are-compulsory culture or point out that monogamy/heterosexuality don't work for everyone. But to some people, showing the tiniest indication of being a bit of a feminist is so frightening and threatening that they have to throw any accusation they can in your direction to make you shut up.

I think that sometimes bitterness gets confused with anger. It is not the same. It is possible to be extremely angry without being bitter.

No, you are not imagining it.

I agree with you about forgiveness too.

As a Catholic by birth and education I think forgiveness and its necessary companion contrition are very powerful, but I don't agree that there is an imperative to forgive every wrong, regardless of apology.

I think it is the presumption that women who have been wronged are "bitter" rather than justifiably pissed off that is the root of the common belief that thousands of irrationsl, bitter, vengeful women are preventing their children seeing their fathers.

I don't understand why it is so easy for so many to accept that a significant number of women are spiteful and bitter by their very nature. There's no need to wonder WHY so many women might be so bitter, because women are apparently just like that.

Agree with so much that has been said - although I haven't thought it through in gendered terms, just noticed at as a universal.

But here's something I've found disturbing on MN.

When someone is talking about psychologically hurtful stuff during birth (being disbelieved, errors in their notes, their pain being belittled by HCPs who're actually covering for lack of resources), there's always at least one post saying, "You shouldn't be thinking about those things. Just enjoy your baby."

It seems to be code for "Shut up and don't even acknowledge that people hurt you. DON'T TALK ABOUT IT."

Surely the first step in dealing with trauma is to acknowledge it? I don't mean looking for retribution against the HCPs, or expecting them to always be psychic or perfect. Just, to acknowledge the reality of what happened, in order to move on. To be bullied into denying it seems an abuse in itself.

I've never given birth so have no dog in this fight, but it's got to the point where my hackles rise every time I see, "Just enjoy your baby".

Basil, thank you for that.

Some acts shouldn't be forgiven surely? That doesn't mean you can't move on from them. In fact it is important in some situations not to forgive, otherwise you may keep accepting the same treatment.

Why is forgiveness linked to "moving on"?

That sort of sanctimonious attitude is infuriating - 'Oh, you must forgive'. Why must you? It's a personal choice, not an obligation.

Classic silencing tactic, and one that I especially notice when it comes to women writing within the Christian/feminist blogosphere. Christians just love smugly telling people they are 'bitter' simply for speaking out against something. It's one of the most tedious anti-woman tactics on the internet.

The bad things happening to good people thing is not helped by people going on about karma!

I also from time time remind my dc, that life isnt like a hollywood movie.

Life can be rubbish and unfair, and the reality is there is often no retribution, no making up for the bad things and no showing up of those that abused you, that is very difficult to live with, you have to learn to accept you will be treated badly by others and no one will believe you or make it better.

Definitely. As in you're definitely right, not you're definitely imagining this.

There's a woman I know who experienced horrific treatment by her X. She still talks a lot about it many years since. People think she's bitter because "it's all she talks about".

I'd say she's entitled to take a few years to get over the fact that her X broke her jaw and her cheekbone, slashed her with a stanley knife and threatened her with chip fat in the face and if talking about it helps her, good for her; I'm happy to listen and so are lots of others. Despite her experiences, she's irrepressibly cheerful and the sort who would do anything for anyone, so I'd say she's far from bitter. I really enjoy her company.

I think it comes back to the just world hypothesis. So many people cannot assimilate the idea that bad things happen to good people and that innocent victims are often just that - innocent. It brings them up sharp against the knowledge that they could do everything right and still end up in the shit. I think the tendency to dismiss more women than men as bitter is because it is more often women who are in the position of being in the shit. Historically, they've had far les agency in their lives than men and because male privilege has been the dominant view, there has been a need to dismiss the unhappiness of such a large section of the population by making them responsible for their own misfortune. I see similar happening with benefit recipients currently.

I'd like to know which board is more appropriate, or was SigmundFraud making a joke?

I think there are some things it's quite natural to be bitter about TheMouse, and what you describe is one of them.

"it really is hard when you are still being abused and no longer living with the abuser who is recruiting the court system and using the legal system to continue his abuse of you."

Totally, I have been through court proceedings myself and it can be soul destroying.

I was never a bitter person, until the abuse got horrific and it was pointed out to me, the more bitter I got the more I realised how much power I gave away, how badly I was treated etc, I was as bitter at myself as I was at those that had abused me. Going through a bitter stage does not make you a bitter person, i think of it as a healing stage like the stages of grief. I have never experienced anger and hurt like it. I am so glad the majority of it has gone, it really is hard when you are still being abused and no longer living with the abuser who is recruiting the court system and using the legal system to continue his abuse of you.

That one always gets me too Jericho.

Yeah, the single mums one is odd - it never seems to occur to anyone that these women might be quite glad to be shot of men they think were tossers.

I see it a lot on mumsnet especially on the "I've contacted the OW" type threads. The women are told that if they do this they will be seen as the 'bitter' types.

I agree totally with the OP, it is a means of silencing women.

Absolutely - it's a silencing technique commonly applied to women who aren't going to pretend not have have been damaged by someone else's bad behaviour, just as 'You're shrill/irrational' is often used to a woman who, in the act of complaining abour or drawing attention to some form of unfair or poor treatment, isn't bothering to try to be charming, self-deprecating or deferential.

It's like jeffing bingo. You can guarantee it'll pop up somewhere on thread, just a matter of time. Very tiresome.

Worth saying twice I think . The application to single mums is also hand in hand with those women calling their exes on their bad behaviour and not "forgiving and forgetting". Because after all women have to forgive.

I see Jericho has already said the same thing more eloquently than me!