Can I have a bit of a hand here please?

I heard that on WH too pengwin. I think it would make good sense to have one title for all adult women regardless of marital status. However as they pointed out on the show, which one? Would they now need to make up a 4th alternative to Miss Mrs or Ms. It's all too much !!

You have all prompted me to double check the way my letters go out to my clients at work. I am fairly certain they go out using both initials, but I will now double check and change if necessary.

On the plus side, I decided a few months ago that when I draft the transfer deed for properties (I am a property lawyer) I would draft them with the woman's name first, then the man's. It's only convention that makes it usual for it to be the mans name first.

Though I must 'fess up to the fact that I do put the man's name first on mortgage deeds. Petty, I know, but I have no problem with them being first named on debts!

I've always felt very odd being introduced in the formal way as (for instance) "please welcome, Mrs Andrew DeVere". The only time you become Mrs Diane DeVere is when you're widowed. Of course this is all old-fashioned, correct! etiquette that probably needs readdressing (literally). The only alternative is to keep your name or change it to something else. I agree with twostepsback, that the Mr and Mrs DeVere is prob just pitched right for a school (they're not government or the military after all, so no need to be quite so traditional).

I agree too.I didnt even change my surname and i still get adressed as Mr and mrs J not even my fecking name on there at all. Also any monies due to us-insurance payouts or suchlike are all written to him. I havent ceased to exist because i got married-tuts.

I'm pissed off about this too.

When DDs start at her school I gave my name as Ms LanceCorporalBoiledEgg, but everything I receive from them is addressed to Miss LanceCorporalBoiledEgg. Grrrr....

yes that's correct pengwin. Many countries used to have married/unmarried titles, but nowadays a lot of them just use the "unmarried" one for young girls and "married" for all adults. reasonable, I think.

Just musing about this. I am starting to wonder if the title 'Ms' has been subject to exactly the same kind of anti-feminist marketing campaign as the word 'feminist' from the outset. Despite the fact that its universal adoption would solve a problem and get rid of an anachronistic system in which women advertise their marital status according to their title, some women avoid it due to 'negative' connotations, such as: you must be divorced, or a lesbian, a rabid feminist, or just plain bolshy.

Funny, that. When all it really indicates is that you are female. I encounter fewer funny looks when I use it now though, so I still hold out hope for the title.

Btw I wouldn't mind if any title (Ms/Mrs/Miss) became universal, so long as it stops the practice of making distinctions based on marital status. Don't all adult women use 'Frau' in Germany or something? And there was something on the radio recently about French officialdom switching to 'Madame' now and not using Mademoiselle anymore . Perhaps someone else can add detail on this.

Sometimes I come on this forum just to be reassured that I'm not the only woman in the whole country who is massively bothered by this type of thing. Slightly OT but I booked a holiday the other day through a small travel company. I will admit that the the owner's question, "And is that Mrs, Miss or Ms?" was actually a (small) factor in choosing to book with them! Thank you for actually understanding there is a choice and offering it!

I was slightly hacked off with my mentor the other day too (I am a student midwife). A married woman came in for booking who had a different last name to her husband. Afterwards my mentor went on this mild rant about how different surnames make it so difficult (erm, how?) and why can't these women just take their husbands' names? I took great delight in letting her know that I would not be changing my name when I marry later this year I don't think my mentor would even be able to comprehend a married woman who didn't want to use Mrs.

If the school claims they are addressing letters to all resident parents then this is what they should do. At the moment they are addrssing the letters to Mr A. Devere and his wife (whoever that happens to be at the moment).

pengwin. of course you can use Miss, Ms or Mrs exactly as you choose.

Ms., Mrs. And Miss. are all 17th centuary abbreviations of Misstress. You can legally use whichever you please regardless of the surname you use.

I'm not a 100% sure on this but isn't the title "Mrs" a shortened way of saying "Mistress of"? In which case it is technically correct to say Mrs A DeVere because it means "Mistress of A... DeVere". You are not the Mistress of B...DeVere but of A...DeVere.

I completely agree with you that it takes away the last element of your own identity when addressing you, and its a total anachronism, but really the problem lies with the title "Mrs".

This is why I much prefer use of the title 'Ms' because it does not make irrelevant reference to marital status. I use the title Ms Pengwin anyway because I am married, hence 'Miss' would be wrong, and I cannot use Mrs Pengwin because it is my original name not my husband's name.

MrsDeVere, you asked up thread what if it were a same sex relationship.

I am in a same sex relationship. At first dd's school used to address everything to Ms Squirrel and Ms Fox. Lately I have been deleted and stuff has been coming addressed just to Ms Fox.

I presume this is because dd has the same surname as dp and some bright spark decided to 'correct' the database.

OhDoAdmitMrsD - are you going on the Million Women Rise March on 3 March (I think).

OP - I had exactly the same problem with my son's school. I called them and demanded they change their records. I said to them that they should change the way they address all the parents but if not please change mine. All future correspondence was addressed to Mr A and Mrs C Jones, which suited me fine. I am just in the middle of an arguement with the Halifax as they have refused to change the way they address me and DH. They insist on Mr and Mrs A Jones, hence I have closed my account and we have closed our joint account too. It makes me sick. I also pointed out to the school that they should be teaching gender equality and addressing mothers as 'belonging to their husbands' is not a good way to teach.

OP Can I ask you, which area do you live in. I am the 'only feminist in Doncaster!!!!' so every chance I get I try to look for someone in my area!!!

Stewie Griffin's mum = brilliant, I will try that one next time it happens because as I am only a chattle to my husband I am sure it will!

There can be no other interpretation than the man is more important than the woman.
Of course there can't, that's the whole point of it really. The woman is relegated to so and so's wife. The same applies to Mr and Mrs Devere with no initial.

It would annoy me.

It's outdated & ignorant.

Letters could be addressed to:-

Mr A & Mrs B DeVere

or

Mr & Mrs DeVere (added bonus of having one less character to hit on the keyboard - a win-win situation)

I think I'm right in saying (and Wikipedia agrees with me) that once-upon-a-time, you'd be Mrs Him DeVere as long as you were still married (even if the letter were only addressed to you), but Mrs You DeVere once you were divorced.

It is technically correct. If you call yourself Mrs Devere, which means "wife of Mr Devere", then being addressed as Mr and Mrs A. Devere (Mr A. Devere and his wife) is basically the same thing. I do dislike it and never address letters in that way myself but then I dislike the whole name changing thing anyway.

I dont understand why it would be old fashioned to call me by my husband's full name but its ok to call me by his initial. Its the same thing in a shortened form surely

When you're together Mr and Mrs A. Devere would be correct but calling you Mrs Hisname Devere when there's just there would be old-fashioned.

Debrett's doesn't list a proper form as correct

*They do. Mr and Mrs Thomas Grey. All the others have one or the other partner being more important than an ordinary Mr or Mrs which accounts for the difference.

If you want the school to address you differently, you need to tell them. Although a lot of women don't like it, it was a logical assumption by them.*

Cogito Mr & Mrs J Smith is quite correct for a formal letter.

Correct according to some manuals of style but still socially inappropriate in the UK (since married women have had agency in their own right for decades) and offensive to many - so incorrect in every other way. It's lazy and blinkered to trot out a "it's what we've always done" defense to something that causes wide spread offense or is anachronistic.