is there a special place in hell for women who dont help other women

Yep. Wot Kritique said.

I think Madeleine Albright is saying this in the context of a world where men are always helping each other out, without even realising that that is what they're doing. Because women have been so "othered" when they're in the workplace, men see them firstly as women, before they see them as professionals - with other men, they just see them as other professionals and if they respect them without being threatened by them, they'll promote their interests whereas it simply doesn't occur to them to promote women's interests - not because they're consciously being sexist, but just because they simply don't rate their women colleagues as being equally relevant in terms of recommending, networking, passing on tips to, etc.

This is why women's networking stuff is needed. Because men exclude us without intending to or even realising they're doing it (and some men of course, do realise it and do it deliberately). Which is why it's really important to mentor and support other women, because the men who are constantly being mentored and promoted by the men in charge, aren't going to do it for us and anyone who thinks they are, is living in cloud cuckoo land.

I wish I'd known this 20 years ago.

Maybe she's thinking of the 9th circle of hell - reserved for those who have committed "treachery," - and the fourth and deepest layer is for those who have betrayed their benefactors.

So, for example, if a woman benefits from changes in the law, brought in by the tireless campaigning of other women or if they get ahead in their field with the support of other women, but then refuse to acknowledge that let alone help other women in return, yep, that's pretty low.

I know I've name checked it many a time, but Andrea Dworkin's Right Wing Women at least gives some context for this phenomenon, as perhaps many expect that if one person was helped out, they'd be more inclined to help others in the future.

There's the old adage that as a woman you have to work twice as hard to get half the credit a man would. There's imho some truth in that - say if you are a woman in a male-dominated field of work where you could be treated by a freak, a pariah, certainly not "one of the boys," so even if you excel, those within the establishment around you will still not believe it to be true.

Then there's the old chestnut about if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, and you will find many women behaving and interacting in ways to avoid standing out as different, as a woman. One of those ways is to show solidarity with the culture and views of those who pull the strings. If the culture is anti-women, that means dissing women, individually and collectively. There is nowt to gain by showing any solidarity with women who haven't quite reached the place on the ladder you have. That risks reminding the influential men around you that actually, you aren't really one of them and you don't actually belong there. You could find yourself out on your ear after busting your ass to get where you are.

It's a kind of survival technique. No it's not noble, but there is a pretty good reason why some women not only aren't keen on helping other women, but sometimes appear to hold other women in contempt.

Maybe we should set a good example by being equally decent to both men and women, and assessing each case on its own merits?

experiences unique to women
so that would be experiences "unique" to approx 51% of the worlds population then!

Well if standards of decency were applied equally to men and women, then there would be no need for feminism at all.

If a politician were being ridiculed for their sexuality or their race, I might not share those traits but I would still stick up for them because it's wrong to ridicule people for these things.

It's not about sisterhood, it's just about generally being a decent person.

No, but it's not "not on" because you are a woman and there is a sisterhood, it's just wrong generally, for everyone, male or female.

Yes of course it is; that's my point. How come it isn't done as much to men? It is done more to women because they are considered fair game. Why do women have to be judged on appearance as well as merit? IT doesn't happen anywhere near as much to men. It's a form of misogyny. Misogyny affects the status of ALL women in society, regardless of whether or not they are personally targeted, so I stick up for the female politician because in doing so I am sticking up for my own rights and those of women everywhere.

ridiculing a female politician because of her looks isn't on

No, but it's not "not on" because you are a woman and there is a sisterhood, it's just wrong generally, for everyone, male or female.

I think this depends on how you interpret 'sisterhood'.

I don't take it to mean 'siding with women over men even if you believe they are wrong'. I think it's more important to honour our own consciences, beliefs and values first.

However, I will stick up for women I disagree with or dislike if I feel that they are getting a hard time because of their gender or that there gender is being used to make life more difficult in a way that would never apply to a man.

For example, ridiculing a female politician because of her looks isn't on. Even though I might vote the other way and secretly be pleased that her treatment is making her political position weaker, it's not fair and therefore I would no part in it and will stick up for her. If her policies are crap or she is a nasty person, she should be taken to task for those things, not her appearance or her family set-up.

And by giving us the story about the bullying woman in your workplace, you are not being sisterly towards her.... Are you trying to help her in any way? Empathise with her point of view? Giving her any support?

@blingloving. Interesting you only get requests from men. I run a cub pack and the pushy ones trying to get their children bumped up the waiting list or being promoted to sixer are always the mums :)

@bejeezus... 'Special affinity' to women is not necessarily the same as your core values. Values don't spill over into life, values are how you live your life. I can by sympathetic or even empathise with a woman but, if defending that woman meant compromising my values, I'd be very uncomfortable. In fact, I've been in situations where that has happened..... someone has asked for my help and I've given it, only to find out later that I wasn't given the full story and am now defending the indefensible. So experience tells me not to charge in like the cavalry but to hold back a little until I've got more information.

If you are nasty to women, why do you get a specialer place in hell than if you are nasty to men?

I've been on the receiving end of some appalling behaviour from women. I am thinking of 2 in particular. There is no such thing as sisterhood and I will not help someone just because they are female.

If there was a sisterhood, no one would ever (knowingly) shag a married man.

If we always offered help to "sisters", there are plenty among us who would take advantage and ask for help when it wasn't necessary.

You just need to glance at active conversations to illustrate these points. Women can be extraordinarily nasty to each other and sisterhood is a romantic day dream.

I think there's two sides to this. I agree that just because I'm a feminist doesn't mean I should immediately lose all sense of critical thinking about other women. But I do think that women can be particularly nasty to each other in a way you don't see with men. For example IME, a man will do something simple like introduce his friend to a colleague with the potential to lead to work etc. That same man, will not normally take responsibility for what happens next. However, a woman will not do that as the woman feels directly responsible for the relationship from there on in and in case it goes sour, she'd rather not do it.

Because of where I work, I regularly get requests from people I know within the organisation to look at the CV/ offer an internship / have coffee with their son/daughter/neighbour's child etc. Those requests are always from men.