girl's schools

As a woman working in a very heavily male dominated profession - physics - its never been boys/men who tried to put me off, but other women. At university it was apparent that the women who had been through all girls schooling found it hard to fit into the push and shove of labs where less than 5% were women.

I think there might be a place for single sex education from 11-16, but I'd rather efforts were put into inspiring both sexes to be confident in their choices from a very young age. I've been horrified by the social pressures on ds from age 4 to conform to do boys activites, not have girl friends etc

I think that entire list deserves disseminating in view of the appalling choices many pupils are allowed to make by their schools. We had to steer DS away from Electronics as it seemed to be a less rigorous subject than the ones he could have been doing. Glad we did now, not that it helped him get into Oxbridge- but his 3 A1 list rigorous subjects did help get a place in engineering at a different university in the mad scramble through clearing for this academic year.

List of A levels and their suitability for applicants to Trinity College Cambridge, and buy extension to Oxbridge at large:

LIST A1
Generally Suitable Science A-levels

Biology
Chemistry
Mathematics
Further Mathematics
Physics

LIST A2
Generally Suitable Arts A-levels

Art History
Chinese
Classical Civilisation
Economics
English Literature
French
Geography
German
Greek
History
Irish
Italian
Japanese
Latin
Music
Philosophy
Religious Studies
Russian
Spanish
Welsh

LIST B
A-levels of More Limited Suitability

Archaeology (Arch & Anth)
Art & Design (Arts)
Business Studies (Economics)
Design & Technology (Architecture)
Drama/Theatre Studies (Arts)
Electronics (Engineering)
English Language (Arts)
Film Studies (Arts)
Government & Politics (Arts)
Law (Land Economy & Law)
Media Studies (Arts)
Psychology (Arts)
Sociology (Arts)

LIST C
A-levels Suitable Only As Fourth Subjects

Accounting
Applied Science
Citizenship
Communication Studies
Computing
Critical Thinking
Dance
Environmental Science
General Studies
Health & Social Care
Home Economics
ICT
Leisure Studies
Music Technology
Performance Studies
Performing Arts
Perspectives on Science
Photography
Physical Education
Science
Science for Public Understanding
Sports Studies
Travel & Tourism
World Development

I was happy in a girls' school and my daughters who have now left (and indeed have graduated) were too and we all did fairly well.

Electronic A level - I think the post is misleading ab ove. Electronics A level which I said was a fake dumbed down A level the state schools peddle (and there are loads of them a nice little ruse this Government is stopping) is on the not so good list. It is not one most good schools offer presumably because it's a bit easier anod not that wellr egarded. It is of more limited suitability - ie avoid with a barge pole given how many better advised A level students from good schools won't be doing it.

"LIST B
A-levels of More Limited Suitability

Archaeology (Arch & Anth)
Art & Design (Arts)
Business Studies (Economics)
Design & Technology (Architecture)
Drama/Theatre Studies (Arts)
Electronics (Engineering)
English Language (Arts)
Film Studies (Arts)
Government & Politics (Arts)
Law (Land Economy & Law)
Media Studies (Arts)
Psychology (Arts)
Sociology (Arts)

"So, does that tell us anything about the sort of girls that might thrive in an all-female environment?"

not a lot i would think in the way you mean, because as has been pointed out most girls' schools are private so you can't extrapolate out to society in general IMO.

i attended a state girls' school in a very deprived area and while there was an element of bitchiness, bullying, etc. i would have said less than could be expected in a mixed school. i am not particularly attractive (and was hideous aged 13-15 - overweight, NHS glasses, braces, bad hair, etc) and although i was never in with the in crowd i enjoyed school and made good friends, most of whom i still see.

i think there are issues with socialisation (we had a boys school next door though - the schools merged when i was in my last year), and it's less likely to suit girls who prefer male company but as far as i'm aware all of the research indicates that girls as a group do better academically with single-sex teaching.

I do agree that I wouldn't particularly want dd to do electronics A level

Electronics isn't as 'fake' as all that, it figures in the Trinity College list of acceptable choices for engineers. But the same sort of issues can apply at GCSE. My niece found herself the only girl doing electronics for her tech option - which I don't think she found problematic, but it would put some people off.

"So, does that tell us anything about the sort of girls that might thrive in an all-female environment?"

No, it tells you something about the sort of people who thrive in a hot-house academic environment where results are all. I know plenty of fucked-up men who went to highly pressured single sex boarding schools.

Xenia - I do agree that I wouldn't particularly want dd to do electronics A level for the sake of the qualification, but I think its a lunchtime club subject and I'd really like dd to have the option of joining in with something like that if it suits her without feeling like the odd one out.

Grimwig - I wasn't describing a stereotype but rather the reality I had before me when I took the decision!

a class composed 80% of spotty, sweaty adolescent boys and 15% of nerdy girls

How to deal with that stereotype... Being good at science/maths does not equate to 'nerdy' thank you very much.

Maybe to thrive as a sciency girl in a mixed school you have to be a fairly confident sort of person who isn't overly influenced by the herd. And maybe to thrive in a girls school, the same applies.

So, does that tell us anything about the sort of girls that might thrive in an all-female environment?
I've only ever felt bullied, intimidated and mocked unpleasantly by females.

I had the same experience as Iloveberries. I was so unhappy I was suicidal.

I did, mine are 17 and 21 now, DD is confident with her own intelligence and non-conformism as to dress, hobbies and choice of university course.
She is her own person. And a feminist.

aaah, dustinthewind sorry you had the same experience as me... rotten wasn't it! Still, at least it will help us make a clear choice for our own kids!

'i attended an all girls school and mine was a horrendous academic hothouse of pressure, eating disorders and bitchiness.

i would never inflict the same on my dd.

i did come out with cracking academic results but the low self esteem and eating disorders which it also created havent been worth it IMO'

Ditto what iloveberries said, and mine was a boarding school. Very limited subject choices as well. Vile. The only reason I would ever have returned would have been with 5 gallons of petrol.

i don't think a girls school would have suited me, many of my friends are boys because i had and have three main interests/hobbies that are male-dominated.
there are some girls who are into the same things as me but statistically i would have been very lucky to meet them in a girls school year-group.

because of my positive experiences with male platonic friends in my teenage years i would be reluctant to choose a single-sex environment for a daughter of mine.

The independent girls school near us starts from age 3.

I find the whole concept bizarre tbh.

The independent girls school near us starts from age 3.

I find the whole concept bizarre tbh.

Electronics A level is not a proper A level though is it?Physics is okay. People need to be very careful about all these fake type qualifications the state schools push. Thankfully this Government is on to it and giving state school parents the information private school ones seem already to have about what employers want.

I didn't choose a strong maths/science option at school (not England) many years ago despite my maths teachers heavy protestations because the idea of spending half my schooldays in a class composed 80% of spotty, sweaty adolescent boys and 15% of nerdy girls was intolerable.

But I quite like maths and science and earned my living doing Excel nonetheless!

I think that unfortunately it is hard to untangle the pros and cons of single sex education for girls from the fact that most girls' schools are indys or grammars.

Xenia, while I am sure you're right about the highest performers being single sex girls' schools, I strongly suspect that the boys also get the best results in single sex schools, simply because so many indies & grammars are single sex.

I tend to be pro, having attended a single sex school - I didn't experience any pushiness/academic hothousing - but that is probably because it was a not-very-academic comprehensive. Certainly compared to friends in mixed schools it was much easier to be good at maths/science without it being an issue - since everyone taking physics is by definition a girl, then you're not being strange by doing so!

Very sadly looking at the 'academically excellent' school that is one of dd's options when she goes to secondary it does seem that the 'girls don't do science' thing still holds, as a large majority of physics A level students and all of the electronics A level students are boys. So just for that reason I'd look hard at a girls school if we had one as an option (sadly we don't).

I suppose overall I'd choose a good girls' school over an equally good mixed school, but if the mixed school seemed substantially better then I'd go for that one.

DD began attending an all girls school in year 7.
I had some misgivings as she had thoroughly loved her mixed prep and is most certainly not a girly girl.

I have to say it's been a resounding success. At a time when so many girls become worried about their appearances to a detrimental degree, the school fosters a lets-not-worry-about-it policy that is utterly refreshing.
The unifrom is daft. But they all look daft so they don't care a kipper.

Also, the food is delicious and varied and plentiful which I'm sure is helpful at this stage.

The best thing is that no-one need feel conscious of themselves when they eat a huge bowl of pasta, or train for cross country in PE knickers, or come top in maths.

I'm not saying any of these things are impossible to do in a mixed environment but they can be less easy. I recall feeling on display as a pupil in a mixed school.

I think there are very strong arguments for teaching girls without the presence of boys, particularly for sciences and mathematics. Testosterone-heavy classrooms are quite off putting places for girls - better to give them their own space for the subjects where boys gather in large numbers.

My daughters went to Habs and NLCS. Just about every school with good results for girls is single sex which says it all. I went to a single sex school too.
I haven't bothered to check rankings.ft.com/secondary-schools/secondary-schools-2011 but I bet the best schools in terms of A level results for girls are not mixed ones.

(By the way it will be girls' schools, not girl's schools (unless there were only one girl in the school which is unlikely). Hopefully girls' schools are very good at teaching use of apostrophes).

I remember they closed the home economics classrooms and made them into extra science labs.
Ah, there the better solution surely - is for the girls to have food tech plus lots of science labs (and electronics and DT...) and for the boys' school to have exactly the same. (DDs 'twin' school has just built its food tech facility at last!)

My experience was much like Mintys, and I went on from there to study engineering. It was strict uniform, so none of the obsession with fashion or attracting the boys (at least not IN school). I remember they closed the home economics classrooms and made them into extra science labs. Churned out loads of doctors and dentists, etc.

I wish I could afford to send my girls to a similar school.

RRR - sure, I know this is mostly anecdote - so's what I'm saying mostly. All I meant was I'm not sure if the case you know is typical - I hope not.

tethers - sure, I don't think segregation is the answer. For those whom it suits in good schools, its one solution. FWIW I don't think I'd have liked a girls school myself; I didn't give a shit whether science was perceived as 'boyish' and I knew without any steering that I was going to uni to do Chemistry - but not all youngsters are so thickskinnned single minded.