girl's schools

Its an interesting question, and outside of the very academic grammars & indys, I'm not sure there's a good answer.

My old school had an equivalent boys' school just across the road. To answer JenaiMarr, the boys who went to it always seemed very ordinary, for want of a better description. They didn't appear to view us girls as an alien species, certainly, nor to be any better or worse than the usual run of teenage boys (rather spotty on the average, but I suspect that they mostly grew out of it).

However, the boys school was perennially undersubscribed and eventually closed not so many years after I left. The LA also wanted to close the girls school but it survived by becoming one of the first 'opted out' schools back in the early 90s.

I guess that no-one had much of an interest in an academically mediocre boys comp, whereas there was a definite constituency who wanted the girls school to survive. The funny thing is that I think that constituency was a mix of those who wanted single sex education for their daughters for feminist reasons, and those who didn't want their daughters to be taught with boys for religious / cultural reasons.

If you want clever men of a certain class/accent ...

well I guess I did as that's what I've got - DHs view seems to be that a boys' school can be a pretty uncivilized place.

Whereas AFAIK one of the core values of most girls' schools is explicitly to develop confident young women with a strong sense of their abilities and equal value in society, I'm not sure that this would be parallelled in a boys' school. What typically would be their ethos?

Fennel - I would agree that the girls in single sex schools are the same girls who would be successful in mixed school. As I've said elsewhere, the fundamental problem with establishing the benefits or otherwise of single sex education for girls lies in the fact that single sex schools are overwhelmingly private or selective schools. I haven't been able to find out how many single sex comprehensive schools there are in the UK, but as far as I can see there are only around 400 single sex state schools including grammars.

Its also fair to say firstly, that the benefits or otherwise in terms of educational achievement are contested. As far as I can see, some studies conclude that girls with lower levels of educational attainment benefit most from single sex education, other studies conclude that there is no 'value added' effect and the differences are linked to differences in the population of girls attending single sex schools.

Secondly, IMO the benefits of single sex education for girls are not really about numbers of GCSEs or A levels gained, or even what subjects those results are in (though of course it is important). They are more about carving out a place for women where they are primary in importance. As such it isn't surprising that they get a lot of knee-jerk antagonism.

I suppose its a bit like Mumsnet - would we all come on here and speak with the same freedom if MN were equally populated by men and women? I know that there are men on here (and of course it isn't obvious who is male and who is female), but essentially it is a women's space. And couldn't the same objections be made - what sort of women need to come to a board like this for support; are we all women with low self confidence, poor body image, or strong libidos (or indeed maybe all three)?

Or, just perhaps, are we women who can perfectly well function in mixed sex groupings in the 'real world' but who like from time to time to operate in a society where we are not the second sex?

If you want clever men of a certain class/accent then you tend to find those in single sex academic boys' schools and those are probably the suitable men for equivalent girls so it all works pretty well in the UK.

I asked "what about the boyz" upthread. To return to that a mo, if we want to see more girls schools then we'll need more boys schools.

What happens to boys who are educated in single sex schools? I'm not interetsed in their academic outcomes for now but in the kind of men they become. Are they the kind of boys/men you want your daughters to have to mix with?

I know I'm stereoptyping here but the whole debate 9and the concept of single sex education) seems based on stereotypes to me.

Here is an interesting article:

American research in Science journal

It doesn't show all the research it draws on but I've seen similar in the UK in the last couple of years, people who are looking at this issue seem to be concluding that the differences you see in girls' performance in single sex schools is because of selection into the schools, not due to the schools themselves. But the girls' schools associations have a huge vested interest in promoting the single-sex schools as beneficial.

I like this bit:
"Most proponents of single-sex schooling readily admit that it is not suitable for all, but they nonetheless believe it should be a choice for a minority of girls (and boys). What ?type? of girl is that? There are vague suggestions: girls with low self-confidence who won?t compete with boys; girls with strong libidos who are distracted by boys; girls with low body satisfaction who are embarrassed to be near boys; girls who strongly dislike boys. But none of these beliefs is backed by research, and in fact, still other research tells us that the girls who are successful in single-sex settings are the same ones who would be successful in coeducational classrooms."

because all the immature science types
??? I can only assume that there is some strange difference in France that leads to what seems to me a bizarrely innacurate stereotyping.

Tak - do you find that the girls who persue science/maths tend to be on the whole good at it whereas while there may be more boys, they will be a mix of good and somewhat mediocre?

That's not what Paris lycée teachers think! Nothing at all to do with lower aspirations, because the same girls that find S intolerable want to go to prépa and to Grandes Ecoles (which require sciences to a very high level and are the ultimate in prestigious aspirations) - they do, however, look for routes that avoid spending 16-18 with immature S profiles.

Blimey was different at my old school. More girls in advanced maths and physics. Mostly mature girls, head girls, prefects etc.

Concentration of boyish boys in bottom sets instead.

Hmm, huge exhibition (one of those educational exhibitions they take all the 2ndry school pupils to see) a couple of years ago in my home town in Normandy about that very topic Bonsoir. The conclusion of all the number-crunching the exhibition was based on was that it was pretty much entirely due social conditioning and lower aspirations on the girls' part.

"I do worry about the idea that girls are gentle little flowers who get squashed by those rowdy boys."

I don't worry about that issue at all because I don't think it exists. The point is that a lot of girls in the 16-18 age range find science types (boys and girls) of the same age group very immature and intolerable company for hours at a time, days on end. Certainly, here in France where the Bac S (science-concentration bac) is the most prestigious, it is still an issue for girls to follow it not because they are not up to the science, but because all the immature science types are concentrated in those classes.

I think for some girls it can be fine, Fennel, but not for all. Otherwise - unless we accept some fundamental difference between the sexes - it is hard to explain why only 25% of A level physics students are girls. Of course single sex schools wouldn't change that overnight, but I think in many cases they provide an easier climate for girls to choose science.

I also think that gender stereotyping tends to work more strongly at lower academic levels. It is reasonably 'acceptable' for a girl to study A level maths or physics (so long as she doesn't mind being considered nerdy/geeky). Its much less acceptable for a girl to choose mechanics over hairdressing at college, or 'Resistant Materials' GCSE over 'Fashion Design' when they take their options.

(Can you tell I've been quizzing the staff on M/F student ratios at 2ndary school open days - I get a sadistic pleasure in watching the woodworking teachers squirm gently though as a good member of the sisterhood I'm nicer to the sewing teachers )

More seriously, the longer term income effects of option choices are pretty obvious; all those Resistant Materials students are likely to go off to small engineering workshops, be fixing tractors or the like. And the fashion design students . . . I'm not so sure what the options for those are round here, but I'm betting they're not that well paid. (Of course one in a thousand may go off to London & make a good wage in fashion, but realistically it isn't going to be many of them.)

Yeay for "nerdy girls" who dare to be themselves!

Maybe I was the sort of nerdy girl Bonsoir was trying to avoid but I found being in boy-dominated classes (mixed sex school, I was the only girl in physics and further maths A levels with lots of spotty boys) quite freeing. I do worry about the idea that girls are gentle little flowers who get squashed by those rowdy boys. As feminists (on this board anyway) shouldn't we be teaching our girls to be a bit more outspoken and challenging so they don't need special sheltered environments?

My dds seem to appreciate having boys around in school, they certainly aren't cowed into silence or girlish giggles around them, not so far anyway.

Oh god and sorry for saying soz as well. Dreadful habit I have picked up from my co-ed DS

Oh - patriarchy.

Soz.

[dim]

The P word?

takver at a recent event at DD's school, the HT mentioned the P word and I almost swooned.

Her view is that an all girl environment is freeing.

I think girls' schools do better for girls than co-eds quite simply because it's usually the only place (apart from Brownies etc.) where the space is all female and isn't organised for the greater convenience of males. Everywhere else in the world practically, is organised with men in mind. Girls' schools are organised with girls in mind. So barring the odd bad experience which there will always be with any school, in general, girls' schools churn out girls who assume that they have the right to be in the world and aren't there only if boys are prepared to tolerate them.

That's the real value of them IMO. The different psychological perspective they give girls which co-ed schools, despite all their equality policies, can't give.

Thinking about it, while I spent a lot of lesson time in male-dominated*
classes, my friends within school were all girls. My male friends were all via out of school activities.

*male-dominated only in terms of numbers

"I do think it a shame when girls at all girls school don't have any friendships with boys."
Unless its a boarding school (and even then there are holidays, but I don't have any personal experience) girls at single sex schools have plenty of time out of school to be friends with boys. I had friends who were boys through music & sport, from 14 onwards lots of my friends were Venture Scouts etc etc.

(Actually, as I was at secondary school in the 80s with all the strikes we had to be off school grounds every break and lunch time, so we hung out in the park with all the other school kids, girls & boys, but I imagine that isn't the norm now )

Dexter - yes, I think that is a really important point, about the girls seeing themselves as equals rather than deferring to boys or letting them run the show. That was definitely my experience and I could see it in effect at university too.

I worked for years in an all girls school and the benefits were as everyone has already mentioned - the girls were far more encouraged in maths and science and as a result did better. They also didn't have to "dumb down" for the boys around them. Luckily there was a boys school nearby which they were linked to, shared discos, events etc, which meant they did have a chance to learn how to "be" around boys.

If I had a DD I'd definitely send her to an all girls school.

I'm in the middle of choosing post primary school for dd1. Her first choice is co-ed. I think the big benefit of all girls academically is in science and maths and these aren't her interests anyway. I do think it a shame when girls at all girls school don't have any friendships with boys. I have always got on well with boys at school and men at work and I remember at uni how girls who had been educated in all girls schools were less comfortable around men. It is complicated but in all I think I prefer co-ed

Me and my sister went to an all girls school.

However when my sister hit the sixth form the school went co-ed with a local mixed school. She soon noticed that the girls from the all girls school acted and regarded themselves as equals to the boys. However the girls who had been at the mixed school all defferred to the boys and let them 'run the show'.

Both me and my sister are now in very male dominated professions which I'm sure has some bearing on the fact we went to single sex schools. It certainly didn't come from our mother who was a SAHM and is very 'traditional' (unless it was a reaction to that).

Even now she would expect my DP to ring for a trades person if something went wrong in the house because she believes that is what men deal with. She is even more horrified (as to be fair is my DP) at my refusal to call any trades person before I've tried to fix the problem myself. So far I've saved ££££s fixing the washing machine and dishwasher etc rather than getting someone out to fix them.