How can a parent let their child be beaten by an OH

On my street was a family with DV, Alcoholism etc the kid would often run to my house for refuge in the early hours after the dad had come back again blasted and violent.

After 20 years all it took was my mum to say 'you know in the eyes of the law you're as guilty as him you have a duty to protect!' for her to get up off her arse and be a mother and for many years shes allowed her children to take beatings if it meant she didn't (seen this first hand as young as 5 )
Not all women like this are terrified victims, some are just basically very selfish or are more interested in having a boyfriend.

However I know thats an extreme example, most women are very scared I can't /won't leave due to repercussions, like an above poster said the time within the woman first leaves is the most dangerous.

I agree totally with everyone who is saying how fundamentally important it is to tackle DV. It is far to easy for men to get away with it.

This is very close to home for me; I ended up reporting a former friend to SS because of a dreadful incident with her DC and her boyfriend that I still find hard to talk and think about. It happened quite recently :(

She chose to be with the boyfriend., because she believed they were meant to be. She definitely had other issues.

I was told her DC are safe and well but there's not a day goes by when I don't think about them all :(.

The children are central, of course they are. But until, as a society, we decide that we won't tolerate DV any longer, it is pointless to continue to berate the victims. The men who commit the crime should be removed from the home, not the women and children. We have a long history of turning a blind eye to "domestics". If mothers had confidence that the legal system would protect them properly they might feel more capable of picking up the phone and calling for help. Protect mothers properly, and you automatically protect the children by getting the abuser out of the home and making sure he doesn't get back in. But resources have to be there to do that, and it would be expensive, so it doesn't happen. Which is appallingly short sighted as the fall-out later on because damaged children grow up into damaged adults costs a fortune to deal with. It just shows the strength of the way things are and have been that governments have avoided the issue for so long. Rather than put the resource in to deal with the problem at source they do as little as they can get away with. It's only women and kids, right? Plenty more where they came from.
As for evidence of passivity, and fear of being without a man I refer you to threads all over the Relationships board. But I don't want to argue: we both want the same thing. I just think that the best way forward is to put the blame and the consequences where it belongs - on the abusers.

This make me very uneasy. As of right now I can promise that if someone laid a hand on my DD I would protect her. But how can I be so arrogant as to assume that this is true? Likewise I can swear that no man will ever abuse me...but can I really? I don't believe anyone can speak in absolutes like this when they have no idea of what the experience of DV is actually like.

My MIL was beaten by FIL for years when DH and SIL were small children. They were unharmed, but by no means undamaged. MIL was frightened of FIL and believed that the abuse was not only normal, but to be expected. She had been taught this by her family and friends, none of whom did anything and were often victims themselves. Her father was cruel to her, and so she saw nothing wrong with a continuation of cruelty from her husband. FWIW she met FIL when she was 18 and became pregnant with DH almost at once, so went directly from her fathers house to her husbands house. Fast forward several years later, and MIL discovered that SILs partner (with whom she had a baby) had beaten her more than once. SIL was just 16. MIL told SIL to "talk to" her partner, but to return to him. It was normal for the male member of a relationship to act out his agression with his fists. Its only by chance that DH and I found out about this, and it was us backing up SIL and telling her that no it wasn't right, yes it was illegal and she really didn't have to put up with it, that she left him. It was less than 2 months later that he broke into her flat and stabbed a man he found there who was a friend of SILs picking up some things for her.

My point is that until violence against women, violence from men (husbands, partners, boyfriends) continues to be normalised, this will continue. MIL should have protected her daughter, even if it wasn't her boyfriend committing the violence, but SILs, but she didn't. She pushed them back together because she believed wholeheartedly that it was the done thing in relationships.

Where does that leave the children then, cartimandua?
Left with the mother or removed because she can't or won't protect them from a constant danger in their lives?

' As long as girls continue to be socialised into passivity and taught that lurve conquers all and that having a man is the be-all and end-all of existence, what hope do they have? They have been taught to be helpless and blaming them for it is cruel and counterproductive.'

By whom? My DD and her friends get mixed messages from the media and from some adults they come into contact with, her education within school and college has been free of that particular career choice, but it isn't quite the brainwashing situation that you appear to think it is. Who teaches the women in our culture to be helpless and passively accept violence and rape in return for material comforts and the security of a jail home?
Not in this society. I would agree if you were stepping into certain other cultures that I have experienced, but even girls from those traditional arrangements are beginning to see that there are alternatives, and to seize the opportunities available with both hands.
The fact that abused children often grow up to repeat their experiences is another reason for intervention with the needs of the child paramount.

DV will continue as long as our society continues to condone it. It is as simple as that. Were there the will to stamp it out, women would know that they would be protected. They could go to the police secure in the knowledge that the perpetrator would be swiftly removed from the house, charged, tried and slung in jail if found guilty. There should be no need for refuges - why should the innocent party have to leave the home? No wonder abused women stay and put up with it, when many of them see no alternative. As long as girls continue to be socialised into passivity and taught that lurve conquers all and that having a man is the be-all and end-all of existence, what hope do they have? They have been taught to be helpless and blaming them for it is cruel and counterproductive.

Thumbwitch No, I haven had any counselling. I don't know why I didn't react. He did threaten to take DDs away if he had to leave and he was always right about everything, my opinion didn't count. When he picked DS1 up and threw he across the room I did stop him getting to him. DS would have been about 7 years old then.

LetsKateWin - I agree. I have also been in a relationship that had elements of abuse and am extraordinarily lucky and grateful that the bastard moved on to someone else before I got too sucked in. But it is quite incredible how you forgive the first "slip", and then the next isn't really any/much worse, so because you forgave it the first time, you do it again; and then the next one is that little bit worse but he's so apologetic, didn't mean it, you believe him etc...
I used to think I'd leave at the first hit but I didn't. It's truly astonishing what happens. BUT - I still like to think I'd stand up for my child being bashed/abused - can't tell though, can I. :(

She may still be with him because she believes he might carry out his threats, although he is in ill health now (certainly not physically capable of beating his children to death) and I think she feels reponsible for him. The threats are now only made towards himself i.e "If you leave me I will kill myself" he probably would. The emotional abuse is still going on, but not as extreme as it used to be.

I have never met anyone who hasn't been of the opinion that they would leave immediately if their partner beat them, but many people don't. I think this illustrates that it's not as easy as we all believe.

I have seen someone close to me, who would never be walked all over by anyone, go through the process of him making her abandon her friends, making her think that he was the only person in the world that she needed and then eroded all her confidence, followed by mental and physical abuse. They do it such a clever way that the victim doesn't realise what's happening. Again, we would probably all say that we would never let a partner come between us and our friends but it happens.

I know it's nice to think that we would all leave immediately if our children were in danger, but you become a different person when you get ground down and you think in a different way.

I know not all situations are the same, and in my 'normal' state of mind I can't ever see myself standing by and letting anyone be violent towards my DD, but there may come a time when I find myself in too deep before I've realised what's happened. Obviously I hope this day will never come.

I hope this makes sense. I had to go and change a nappy in the middle of typing...

Tortoise - have you come to any conclusions about why it happened that way? Have you had any counselling for it, or any help to work out why you weren't able to react? I'm interested, not wanting to blame you.

Dust Yes it was the right thing for them to do. It hurt like hell at the time (and still does when I think about that day, my DDs 1st birthday) but it meant DS1 was safe. He never hit/hurt my DS2 but for his safety both went to their dads. It took me 2 years of court to get them home, I wasn't going to give up!

Tortoise, do you think the SS were right to do what they did to protect your children?

'The abuse stopped when his children grew up enough to fight back.'

Did he carry out his threats and kill everyone he'd threatened to Dooin?
Did she stay with him because she still believed he might?

'As a coping mechanisim she seems to have justified the abuse in her head and convinced herself it was not that bad because he also did x, y and z and wasn't bad all the time. '

He children had to suffer until they were old enough to protect themselves, because no one did anything to help them escape. That's appalling.

She was free to deceive herself any way she wanted to, but they had to be part of it because no one else intervened, and that's wrong.

Tortoise, don't beat yourself up. You did something. You got your DC's away from the abuse. My mother did NOTHING. I got away from the abuse by leaving. My mother did nothing to help or protect me whilst it was going on. I HATE and despise her and will never let her or my dad back into my life.

It happened to me. My xp physically and emotionally abused my DS1. Eventually social workers stepped in. My 2 DSs were taken away from me. Xp was removed by court because he wouldn't leave. I had 2 DDs with him.
I did get my sons back, I fought hard for them through court.
To this day I still beat myself up over it. I don't understand why I let it happen. Regularly cried over it in the past, played it over in my head over and over again. I can't explain why. This all happened 6 years ago.
In tears now just seeing this thread and the memories it brings up.

I agree that we don't punish the perpetrators adequately, or have enough education and deterrents there.
DP has on several occasions intervened in such situations where she has felt a child is under threat. On one occasion, the mother of the child berated her aggressively, and DP told her in no uncertain times that the kid needed to see that some adults did not think what was happening to him was OK, that some adults will act to protect him if his own parents won't.
Big wake up call for the waste of space that were that little boy's parents.

it's funny how we forgive things in the past, because 'it was like that then', but in the present assume everyone lives in the same culture as us when in reality they (like the people we forgive in the past) may well have always lived in a culture where it too was just like that.

also worth remembering that all of the children with ebd, sn etc in childhood don't suddenly heal or disappear when they hit 18 years of age. many take their limitations and problems onwards into the relationships they form and the parenting they perform.

so many factors.

have to say i find this easier in the abstract though. in real life i cannot be around neglectful and damaging parenting and if someone is engaged in it and no encouragement, advice, reality calls etc change them or reveal willingness to resolve things i can't be around it.

i think also we make this distinction in a firm way between children and adults when in reality the child you see being abused and downtrodden will likely be the adult someone sees allowing their child to be abused and downtrodden a decade or so later. there wasn't some lightbulb moment when the individual ceased being an abused, broken child and became a healthy strong adult who should know how to stand up to an abuser.

some people go straight from abusive home to abusive partner without any intervention or help or clear period of space to move on from the damage of childhood that makes adulthood look any different. your bus stop woman may be one of those children chas. she may know no different and not even have a small part of her mind that believes in a world where people treat each other decently with love and respect and gentleness - she may never have experienced it or seen it.

no and often they've half their work done for them by a previous abuser maybenow they know who to target.

& he (the man in the car) demanded they get in the car before driving off

chas

I watched an incident at my local shops recently. A man, a woman & a boy of about 6. The woman & the boy were outside the car & the man was sat inside, shouting at the little boy. Every time he opened his mouth, the woman jumped, she looked more scared than her (assuming here) son. The lad was barely paying attention, but the woman looked terrified. Security started to make their way over & demanded they get in the car before driving off. But I cannot emphasize how terrified she looked.

Maybe when she (in your story) let the man in, he was a wonderful (on the surface) man who promised her the world, was caring, loving, attentive etc, but over time she has become so ground down by him, his treatment of her, that standing up to him would mean a beating perhaps. You're judging her & condemning her when you know NOTHING about the life she leads.

there are some women who are able to protect their children against abusers and there are some women who are not.

unfortunately abusers are not usually attracted to the strong, self-confident able women