How can a parent let their child be beaten by an OH

I did link to flashcards about Dr Dee Graham's Loving to Survive but this link is a comprehensive review of the book.

abusesanctuary.blogspot.com/2005/10/loving-to-survive-sexual-terror-mens.html

i liken it to drink driving sunshine - it's really not long ago at all that it was seen as perfectly acceptable, harmless and normal. with the police cracking down on it, severe sentencing and advertising campaigns there has been a massive shift public perception. something similar needs to happen. though please not through triggering and distressing advertising by some charity that is looking to use any level of disturbing, emotive imagery to raise money.

my cynical note is this - there's always great motivation and investment willingness to prevent crimes against property and corporate interests but very little for dealing with crimes against people, and in particular women.

a country that sends people to prison for non purchase of tv licenses but shows little interest in severely punishing those who beat, rape and otherwise abuse individuals is disturbing to say the least.

I have been hugely impressed by how much the police approach to domestic abuse has changed. Granted there are a few dinosaurs out there who haven't taken the message on board, but they will disappear with time. And while you might feel you don't make much of a difference to the family you visit, a message is being sent to the wider community and children involved - abuse is wrong and can result in you being arrested. I think that's quite powerful. It may take generations to sink in just as the police approach to abuse has taken years to change, but I believe it will work in time.

I agree with that vast sums of money would be required for multi-agency working, but I think it's the only way forward. Police involvement tends to come a little too late. In terms of prevention, much more training needs to be given to those dealing with children or women on a more regular basis, such as:
? Specialist peripatetic staff for secondary schools, who can talk about abuse and the dynamics of abusive relationships.
? A specialist member of staff in all primary schools (possibly combined with the TA role) whose job it is to look for the signs of abuse. Teachers have enough to do already and can't really devote enough time or watchfulness to this.
? A return to the days where HVs see all children regularly rather than those they have identified as 'in need'. Too many children slip through the net this way because quite often mothers who are being abused by their partners or allowing their partners to abuse their children will present a very capable and loving facade to a HV in the short few weeks they see them before being signed off and told to only come back if you have concerns. It's not the HV's fault, it's the new system they've had to adapt because of a decrease in resources.
? A register of DV offenders that is available to midwives, so that they can see if the expectant fathers pose a risk to mother or child. How this would be handled is another debate in itself but I think it should be out there.

A multi-agency approach may cost huge amounts to implement, but it would save money long-term. A task can be carried out just once in a multi-agency framework whereas without co-operation several agencies may end up duplicating the same work, costing 3x as much. Similarly, once the framework was in place, bureaucracy would diminish, as would all the associated costs of maintaining it. And these are just practical savings. The human savings would of course be incalculable.

Another thing that has to change is the law. The police are powerless once they've made their case and handed over evidence. Sentencing needs to be made harsher and perpetrators made examples of in much the same way as knife crime has been tackled. That requires legislative change and a shake up of judicial perceptions.

The biggest thing that needs to change though is cultural perception, which is largely media led. To challenge that requires hard-hitting, government-led campaigns about abuse on a massive scale not dissimilar to those on smoking, as well as more campaigns about the objectification of women and violence in our culture generally.

Quite Cartimandua.

There's a thread in Lone Parents atm, where someone has actually asserted that where LP's claim they're denying access to non-resident fathers because of violence, most of them are making it up.

As bald as that. No research to back it up, no numbers, no evidence. Just sheer, unbridled, unthinking misogyny.

I'm sure the myths about DV are every bit as entrenched as the myths about rape.

What a wonderful discussion. Vicar, do you think that the CPS gives in too easily? Is it still the case that in law a wife can refuse to give evidence against her husband?

I imagine that there are as many myths about DV as there are about rape. You can see where the separatists were coming from, can't you? I still think that if the State really saw these issues as serious problems, then the State would put a lot more resource and effort into putting a stop to them. Wonder how many MPs have abused their families?

agreed sunshine - we tend to deal with the symptoms and not the causes. Dysfunction is very often continued from one generation to the next, because if children are brought up knowing nothing else, by what yardstick do they measure their own relationships?

Early intervention would be the key i think to change patterns of behaviour, but thats takes a multi agency approach, and money. pots of money and needs the cooperation of all involved.

a magic wand wouldnt go amiss either....

Vicar I've read posts of your before and been moved by them. You endured so much as a child. . It's immensely to your credit that you've broken that cycle and that you're prepared to talk about it on here, which also goes for everyone else talking from personal experience.

Much as I champion victims of DV and believe we could be doing far more to help them, I really wish more was done to try to prevent it, rather than dealing with the end result. As Vicar sees first hand in her job, for too many women it is too late - they have become completely institutionalised in the role of victim. In these cases, the only option is to remove the child, sadly. But that doesn't mean we should do nothing. Far from it. Prevention MUST involve treating current perpetrators/victims in a way that makes it clear to the NEXT generation that abuse is unacceptable, even if it makes little difference to the perpetrator/victim concerned.

And it needs to go into schools far more. I agree with everything Basil posted earlier. I am horrified at how many local teenagers in my area (fairly well off semi-rural area) have taken onboard the message that love = passion = physical force. DV has, to some extent, been glamourised in popular and teen culture. WE need to find a way of undoing those messages because in many homes the parents will be reinforcing such devastating norms, not countering them.

Superb posts above, SAF and Vicar.

Jasmine, imo it's naive - and very common in victims - to imagine treatment could cure a malicious bully. My father opened up more to me, too, in ways he didn't to other family members (not even mum). I feel compassion for his pain; it was real enough. But he could have chosen at any time to stop taking it out on other people. In his profession, he was offered therapy - in fact, he was sent to a psychologist at one point - but chose to remain embittered and obnoxious.

That choice isn't a 'choice' as you or I would construe it. It's following what feels like an inner direction to the perpetrator. Most of the men we refer to as feeling 'entitle' to violence are like that. It's unfixable unless you want to try experimental brain surgery.
:(

Vicar, yes that's true, my dad also thought I was the mad one, not him. But I think he has gained a tiny bit of insight recently (6 years after I cut him out of my life), when he said in a letter to me that he regretted the past. Compare this to my mother, who I cut out of my life at the same time, where she is in complete denial and still believes she was a wonderful parent and she simply cannot comprehend why I want nothing to do with her.

The adult body but child like mind and emotional state that swallow described fits her perfectly. She was and is like a child, not an autonomous adult with the power to make choices about her life. She was another child within our family, not the other adult besides my dad. And it's the same to this day. She has my sisters running around after her and looking after her protectively as if she was their child. My sisters have no idea how dysfunctional this is. Whilst they are looking after her, their mother, who is looking after them, the real children?

im not sure that therapy would have worked on my step father, and to accept therapy, you have to accept you have a problem - in my step fathers mind i was the problem not him.

as a police officer DV is taken very seriously now - i know that when my injuries came to light as a child back in the 80's, the police did not get involved. only social services did, and they were pretty useless back then.

as a police officer the challenge is often to get the victim to aid the prosecution - often with low level DV the CPS will drop a case if the victim is unwilling to make a complaint. For more serious DV then that tends to be different, but im afraid that officers do get jaded if they go back again and again and again to the same situations, the first step is the victim has to want to help themselves, and often, they just keep going back. Its very difficult. Im in response so my role tends to be lock up the suspect, deal with them, and put a report in for the DV unit. For more serious cases the DV unit will take the case and try to put in place what ever help the victim needs. Response officers are compelled to take "positive action" but of course you cannot live someones life for them. If someone has just had a domestic argument with no offences - i still do a report, and if i have child concerns i can do a report that goes to social services and our public protection unit, but thats my bit done. I often dont hear back, or if i do, i just get a letter saying thanks for raising the concern.

The problem back when i was younger was that my mother never phoned the police as she wasnt the victim when my sf had me to beat. He was never dealt with by the police. When i left, he turned on his own child. When he left, he turned on his wife (my mother)

I cant understand her mindset, other than that she was in complete and total denial. If she didnt admit it - it didnt happen. She never called police. She maintained that he was a good husband and father, and certainly while i was at home, i think she blamed me, she told me not to make her choose between us or i would lose.

Swallow, brilliant post. But I think we need a 2 pronged solution. Therapy for the bullies who need to learn empathy and deal with their unresolved childhood issues. And therapy for the weak child-like adults, to raise their self esteem and self confidence to a healthy level.

Vicar, me too. Word for word.

i'm really sorry you went through all that vicar. as a police officer what have your experiences with dv been like? what are the challenges you face in prosecuting people and what do you think would help tackle this problem?

some women will do this out of selfishness or a basic kind of weakness that means they just don't feel they can leave - it's very hard not to feel utter contempt for them - i think it's natural in a way to feel that at a gutteral level because we have to reject that kind of behaviour in wanting to be good parents ourselves and not to put our own weaknesses etc ahead of our children's care.

the thing is though how do we protect the weak (and those who are dependent on the weak)? i know no one liked my pedophile analogy because they saw it as infantalising women but the reality is that some adults don't actually make it to emotional maturity or strength or agency. we accept weakness in children - we protect the child who is bullied even if they are totally inept at protecting themselves. when that child turns 18 we then call it an adult and withdraw compassion/protection/etc from it's weakness because it's an adult now. some people remain vulnerable, weak in terms of asserting themselves or exercising their agency and control in their own lives, passive etc. but as an adult they are loathed and punished for it and seen as accountable.

the reality then is that some people aren't strong enough to protect their children or to face the truth about what is going on or to take action against an abusive bully who ends up in their life. we may want to loathe them and call them evil, complicit etc etc but maybe we just don't want to face the reality that yes, unsavoury or not, they are that weak, they have managed to grow into adults without a great deal of strength or belief in their ability to act or change things or say no and take a stand and yes there are evil enough people out there who actually target these people for their own sick agenda because they enjoy torturing, owning, controlling other human beings. the problem is still the evil, sickos who enjoy torturing people and they still need to be what we as a society try to stop and contain because there'll always be weak and vulnerable people and of course they'll always be targeted by the evil people who enjoy controlling and abusing them. of those two groups only one is 'evil' for want of a better word and by it i mean having a taste for cruelty, enjoying what we cannot imagine enjoying, crossing boundaries without compunction that we could not cross.

sorry epic post - it can happen to anyone and we've looked at a lot of reasons and ways that someone who couldn't previously have imagined tolerating this can be worn down into a place of accepting it. but there are also always going to be weak and vulnerable children who grow into weak and vulnerable adults who like it or not do not exercise the same level of agency and capacity to act strongly that we do. even if that causes revulsion they still need our protection from people who would do evil things to the weak. and it is the perpetrators who are 'evil' (as in sick tastes in hurting people) and deserve the fullness of our contempt and the full action of the law.

The only thing i have to thank her for is a very high pain threshold.

Right off topic and inappropriate, but you made me laugh, Vicar! Just this evening I was preparing myself to go to the dentist (I have toothache) and reminding myself to big up the pain! Same reason.

....and i share wayyyy to much after a glass of wine....

anyways.

i have direct experience of this issue - my mother married an abuser when i was 7.

i believe she stayed with the man who broke my bones and landed me in hospital for a number of reasons.

she was from a family of dysfunction, and often cycles of abuse simply continue.

she rejected me at birth and so had no bond with me, no mothering instinct. When my step father beat me, she did not get in his way. i believe that she was in her own way scared of him despite him never having laid a hand on her while i was there - however he did in later years beat her too, after both i and my sibling had left home.

I also believe that she was in denial. She had fashioned herself her very own happy ending, getting married after having a child out of wedlock (me) and to have faced up to the reality of my abuse would have shattered her own delusions of happiness.

she turned a blind eye. what other reason can there be? She went on to have my half sibling who also seemed to get treated very badly despite being my stepfathers birth son. I left at 15, and was homeless for a while. My half sibling met the same fate, but became an addict and lived rough for years. He is too messed up to have any relationship with - i tried recently. it didnt work.

i have no contact with my mother these days. i have not had contact for about 12 years. she never said sorry, never took any responsibility for her own actions in being complicit to abuse. She did try to contact me recently via facebook, but i ignored her message. My step father died a few years ago. (he was an angry little man and died young from a heart attack)

I on the other hand made a go of it, happily married for 21 years with 2 lovely kids - and if anyone ever laid hands on them, i would have done time, but then i believe i have a normal and healthy relationship with my two, and they are loved and wanted. I am not like my mother, though im not sure why. I can only attribute that to my very first years in the care of my grandparents prior to her meeting my step father, and my early years, while very unconventional, were loving until she removed me to live with her and her new partner at the age of 7. The only thing i have to thank her for is a very high pain threshold.

i have no idea how any mother can stand by and watch her child be abused. but sadly i come across it often now in my work. It always makes me laugh when the kids i come across tell me ive no idea what their life is like....

i am a police officer now. Funny how things pan out.

I agree, KRITIQ, and I link it directly to the question in the OP.

"Well, at least he's interested." Giggle.
"He's just a bit clumsy with words, he loves you really."
"He's just a bit clumsy with his fists, he loves you really."
"You're the only woman I've hit, I'm just so passionate about you."
"He doesn't mean it."
Gah!

Your post describes beautifully how we are socialised into accepting the unacceptable. As does this one about rape. Same process ... nice girls don't complain. Then, when something happens, everybody goes "Why didn't you complain??"!

Although it was something of a side discussion on the thread, for those interested, there does seem to be an escalation of sexual bullying of girls (and homophobic bullying of boys and girls,) despite most schools having some form of policy in place against bullying (although not always sexual bullying.)

Three years ago, this was highlighted in a Panorama Documentary (results of the Young Voices survey that went with it here

The figure of 1 in 3 girls experiencing sexual harassment in schools comes from a YouGov survey commissioned by the End Violence Against Women (you can download the poll results in a word doc about 3/4 way down this page.

More than 10 years ago, the Association of American University Women Educational Foundation published a report on the prevalence of sexual harassment and violence in American High Schools.

It's certainly worth looking at this summary of findings from Dr Nancy Lombard's research into children's attitudes to violence against women. Although I don't think it's in the summary, she went back to some of the schools where she conducted the interviews to feed back findings to the staff. Everyone from teachers to dinner ladies were surprised at how tolerant the children were of male violence and gendered bullying and taken aback that their "casual approach" to dealing with it potentially contributed to children internalising the message that it was "natural."

Commonly, children regarded one boy hitting another or boys fighting as "real violence," because it was usually broken up by teachers or others and often someone got punished for it. If a boy was taunting a girl or trying to touch her, pull her hair, pull her clothes, etc., it was more often ignored or (and this made me want to scream,) told "he pesters you because he likes you."

Damnedest thing, but I honestly think that early message about why boys tease and taunt girls stays with us, somewhere in the back of our brains at least, telling us that a man being unpleasant to us is a sign of affection, a sign of devotion, a sign of love.

And see smacking thread too because English law still allows you to use violence against a child (as lont as it doesn't leave marks) in a way that is not allowed against a wife, servant, employee. We hvae never thought much of children in the UK and give much more to animal than children's charities sadly.

Xenia you are so right.

There are loads of suggestions on here as to why some mothers allow their children to be abused by their new boyfriend. I am not sure how often that happens compared to women who don't know / have been with their partner for enough time to be ground down. I don't know anyone like this so it is hard to say from a personal perspective.

Yet another reason for single sex schools where girls always do so very much better anyway.

But we are discussing how mothers can let their children be abused by their new boyfriend. Why don't you engage with that issue instead of trying to focus it on your perception of fathers' failings?