poster campaign aimed at men cuts rape rate by 10%

for flip's sake, Eccles. Read this

Under UK law, it is impossible for a woman to rape another woman or a man. They may be able to sexually assault someone, but they can't rape.

I'm not trying to minimise the experience of the people who have been the victim of a sexual assault by a woman, but it's not rape. The police wouldn't arrest the woman and charge her with rape; she'd be charged with sexual assault. Now stop derailing the discussion.

As for men who have been raped by other men, the stigma comes from the patriarchy itself. The patriarchy is that intent on building it's image of what a rape victim looks like, so it can find ways to blame rape victims. The more rape myths are challenged, the less victim blaming and stereotypes occur, and the easier it is for people to accept there are male victims as well.

But this is not a discussion about male on male rape. This was a discussion about a highly effective poster campaign, which got derailed by the MRA's once a-bloody-gain.

Pressed send too soon.

You see, from my point of view, rape as a crime is the ultimate expression of unequal relations between the sexes. One person who thinks that their desire/need whatever is more important that another's and that the other person only exists to satisfy them.

In a world where there was no inequality of this nature, it would never be acceptable to invade someone physically just because they can ( for reasons of unequal force or whatever makes them able to ignore someone's wishes).

Patriarchy enforces the idea of this fundamental inequality between people. It is unfair to all and benefits some more than others. Women can do horrible things just as readily as men if they are in position to do it. It is just that usually the power relations are not that way around, which is reflected in the statistics quoted.

I want to destroy this inequality. I don't think it can be done until we recognize how harmful it is to all.

No Eccles, it wasn't directed at you at all. I was thinking of the Napoleonic/70s glamrockband sounding poster. Perhaps I should have mentioned him by name, but I didn't want to give him the publicity.

I have no problem with acknowledging that males are victims of rape. What I wanted to point out was that male and female victims would benefit for campaigns targeting perpetrators and for that reason I couldn't understand why it was a controversial thing to do.

I also wanted to make it clear that men are raped by men much more often than they are by women.

Rape is not a crime I find remotely funny nor do I find the victims of rape funny whatever their sex is.

I do find it strange that feminists are berated for concentrating on women however. It's kind of the raisin d'être really of feminism. I agree more should be done to make male victims less stigmatized, but I think that would be better done by men, for it's also sadly true that men are hurt by the patriarchy too. The sooner they realize this the better for everyone.

"someone's attempt to prove that how evil feminists are"

Was that directed at me, Catherine?

I've said right from the beginning that I like this campaign, I like the angle it takes, men are practically always the perpetrator, etc.

It seems that unless you exhibit total unwavering belief in the rape myth that it is always a male perpetrator and always a female victim, then you aren't welcome here.

Apparently, raising a valid criticism of a campaign whilst also pointing out the good points is "deriding the campaign", "attempting to prove how evil feminists are", and/or "nonsense about a feminist conspiracy".

I find the minimising and 'othering' of rape victims rather disgusting, actually (i.e. comparison to 'hamster rape').

Let's make it nice and clear to avoid the (deliberate?) misunderstandings:

I LIKE THIS CAMPAIGN; IT IS GOOD. I HOPE THERE ARE MORE LIKE IT.

I ALSO HOPE THAT THERE CAN BE OTHER CAMPAIGNS, OR PARTS OF CAMPAIGNS, FEATURING MALE VICTIMS AND/OR FEMALE RAPISTS. THIS COULD SHOW TO VICTIMS THAT THEY ARE NOT ALONE AND THAT THEIR EXPERIENCE IS ACKNOWLEDGED AS EQUAL TO A 'PROPER' RAPE OF A WOMAN BY A MAN.

Years ago a then ex-boyfriend-but-still-friend came to visit me in my new flat. We got pretty drunk and fell asleep. I woke up in the middle of the night to find his penis inside me. His first words were "oh you don't mind do you?"

Incredibly he didn't think he'd done anything wrong. It's all part of the "you can't blame a guy for trying" culture that these types of posters are trying to challenge. Like Sinical and Basil have pointed out- men who think it's ok. I just hope that wherever he is he sees this poster and realises that it was not ok after all.

did hamsters feature at all, Catherine ?

or was the relevance of hamster rapists on a thread about males raping women vanishingly small too ?

According to that bastion of feminism Wikipedia, it appears that rapists are 99% male (figures from another feminist stronghold in the US Bureau of Justice Statistics) with 1% female assaliants. The same study shows that women are 91% of victims and 9% are male. Thus male rape victims are assaulted by men much more often than by women.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender

Given this, it would appear that the consequence of trying to focus on male victims and female perpetrators is to ignore between 91 and 99 percent of victims. Why would anyone want to do that?

As far as I can see, the statistics also suggest that male rape victims would benefit from targeting rape awareness posters to fellow males. So why such a fuss about them? It's a win win situation all round I feel.

But hey, we shouldn't let facts and reality get in the way of someone's attempt to prove that how evil feminists are

many many rapists don't think of themselves as so.
they think they went a bit far maybe, a bit laddish, a bit naughty but certainly nothing damaging or criminal.
their victims also believe that.
Society believes it - as Cailin Dana says, many many sensible people buy into the grey area thing.

I'm so glad to see the focus on the grey area. It's not that murky really - let's get some clarity.

in future Boney, cut out "you are one of my favourite posters" and cut straight to the chase, ok ?

it will save us all a lot of time

Basil, you understand irony

it is beyond Boney, that much is clear

BBJ with respect, AF didn't make fun of rape victims.

She made fun of people who imply that it is not valid to target the main potential perpetrators of rape against the main potential victims of rape, rather than other less common groups who also perpetrate and are the victims of rape.

Did you really not get that? I thought it was obvious, but then, I'm very familiar with AF's posting style.

This thread is supposed to be about combating rape, not All About Boney.

BasilRathbone

so asking someone why they think its ok to make fun of rape victims is crass and stupid, if it was a male making fun of rape victims there would be uproar here.

I haven't made any claim on male rape, resourcing for rape campaigns or derided a campaign that is finally targeting those responsible for rape, I am not putting forward any view that male rape is worse than female rape, because that would be stupid.

I asked a question, pure and simple, of someone who (as far I can see) compared a human being being raped to that of a hamster being raped.

the responses coming from a group that claims to support rape victims is just slightly shocking.

boney, you don't have a God-given right to dominate or derail any discussion, especially not one by women about rape.

Vega: that's more like it: sex without consent is rape. Simples.

BBJ you asked AF a really crass and stupid question.

She treated it with the disdain it deserves.

Now please grow up. AF obviously does not find the idea of men being raped amusing. I'm guessing she finds it pretty fucking risible though, that some people are outraged that some authorities are targeting some of their messages about rape, on the main perpetrators with reference to the main victims. It's beyond belief that it isn't obvious to some people, why it's valid for resources to be targeted on speaking to potential male perpetrators of potential female victims, rather than on any other group. It's like being furious with the government for targeting their Kill Your Speed messages at motorists instead of cyclists.

You actually couldn't make this up.

Dilys: That's more like it. That is the WOW factor and good on you Lambeth.

anyfucker

I asked a question

if you can't answer it thats fine.

edam

I was replying to a post, if you consider that agressive then report me.

That was exactly my response SQ. Gratitude that at last, the perpetrator is being targeted instead of the victim.

We're so conditioned aren't we?

pick up meaning pick up their posts

not trap off with them

because that would be even weirder

< must proof read >

and males coming on to pick up females in this space is rather concerning

twice

Those are good points basil, very good points.

I suppose I just feel so grateful for something which doesn't tell rape victims in a very straightforward way that it's all their own fault and they deserved it, that I've got a bit carried away.

SQ - we can't talk about females being raped in a feminist space, because we can't talk about women without referencing males. Because males are more important than females.

Honestly, haven't you learned that yet?

That Liverpool one is again a step forward but this: "Be aware of the need to protect yourself and keep others safe." was slightly odd. I wondered what they are exhorting the target to protect themselves from - accidentally penetrating a woman who hasn't consented to penetration? Accidentally becoming a rapist? Or are they exhorting them to look out for rapists who might target them?

Also for some reason I felt that in a sense it was still resting on rape myths - can't answer? can't consent. Again, it sees consent as a woman in a space with a man who could turn violent, being asked if she wants sex and mumbling OK because she's scared that something else worse than rape could happen. Enthusiastic participation is consent, not being able to answer yes because the consequences of saying no might be horrific. But that sounds a bit curmudgeonly and ungrateful doesn't it. It's a start, but only a start.

It is great that campaigns are out there that focus of the perpetrator rather than the victim.

I really do think these posters will do a lot of good for victims - as CailinDana commented earlier - rather than being bombarded with messages about how it's your fault if you don't follow all the rules - messages putting the blame squarely with the assailant. It's a really big shift actually and I hope it continues and becomes more widespread, it might help to change the views of the public at large as well about who is to blame etc