HARROGATE

We are pleased to announce MrsClown made the blog.

no cricket on then?

you'd be amazed which forums mners frequent. i'm not really sure whether that was supposed to be some sort of veiled threat or not, really. either way the 'now remember' was irrationally patronising. almost as though you believe women are in some way inferior?

as far as i know the internet is pretty wide open. i could refer you to some really interesting articles on internet research and ethics if your book gets a bit boring. glad you're having fun rather than taking the issue seriously anyway.

cajole you? must have been a different site. cajoling is what i do with my children when they are being recalcitrant. you apparently are a fully grown adult who knows his own mind.

enjoy your book.

trice, the fact that the official deadline ahs passed is something of a misfortune. i would have thought that the more people who make their feelings felt about strip clubs on the high street the better though, really. it might enable the powers that be to make different decisions in the future. or even reverse the current decisions in light of public opinion.

Would be a good idea trice except the letters etc should have been in last month.

And Mad haven't been to a venue for a few months, probably why I am only contributing a little to the campaign. But been able to be online most of the time and not bothered by the attempts to bully and cajole me it has given me a great deal of amusement to debate what seems to be a moral issue. Thank heaven the law on SEVs says no moral considerations will impact on decisions. So off to relax with a good book and check in later to see what has been said. Now remember Mumsnet is open to all to read without being a member which has added to the fun.

Ohhh and while I think of it a special thanks goes to CoventryWomensVoices you gave a lot to think about and research. It has really helped polarise an issue or two.

enough cooking and cleaning, but not enough lap dances, then, presumably?

and here i was thinking it was all totally altruistic. it was your contention that cleaners were in a far worse position than sex workers, tony. not mine.

priorities, and all that. i think we all know where yours lie.

trice, that's great. can you encourage the rest of the silent majority in harrogate to do the same?

Obviously this thread has moved on from the op and is now all about tony whose views are a bit niche to say the least.

But I just wanted to say that as a resident of Harrogate I detest the presence of a strip club on the high street where my dcs can see it. I have never done anything about it. This thread has spurred me on to write to the council to complain.

Fortunately I am happy doing what I am doing, even if the main posters dont change their minds (and I don't expect them too) it is the fringe supporters that we are targeting to get them to question what is going on. I don't expect volunteers or paid up members of object to change their minds. No argument no matter how logically will get moralists to cease judging others and I dont mean me but dancers.

As for cooking and cleaning have enough of that as it is no need for me to talk about it.

But I would like to thank some of the designer feminists on here, lessons have been learned and that was part of the exercise

tone, just because you choose not to take part in the discussions about cleaning, childcare and care work being poorly paid and women-only, and choose to focus your entire attention on stripping, doesn't mean the conversations don't exist.

and, um, i think the fact that people focus on the legal side of the sex trade is to, um, change the law?

am loving designer feminist, btw. catchy.

lots of work going on about illegal stuff behind the scenes. much more useful to target the 'legal' stuff in the press if you are campaigning for real change. the illegal stuff is already illegal, and campaigning about it won't really help. (no-one is going to stand up in public and argue that trafficking is good - so it's a bit pointless to waste coverage on it) better to put effort into support and provision for trafficked and abused women and keep working with the law behind the scenes. potentially endangering to target illegal areas - given that the women may already be more vulnerable and the men may already be acting outside the scope of the law, poking them with a sharp stick might be unwise. i think providing evidence to liaison workers and support to women who manage to escape from such situations is a more measured and sensible approach. sad that it's necessary, of course. at least with legal establishments the proprietors are theoretically on the right side of the law and less likely to endanger their workers if they are splashed all over the front pages. but it might give them pause for thought about what their work actually entails, rather than hiding behind the 'legal' if ethically and morally dubious status.

maybe you will be starting a campaign about cleaners? i would love a link. it sounds like a far more worthy cause than the one you are employed on currently? and you seem to feel quite strongly that cleaners are being abused and would warrant more support and attention than strippers? i look forward to your campaign to raise the pay and profile of cleaning. maybe more men will take cleaning jobs as a result.

LMAO Kritiq see why you got your name. I would surprise you with my background and have more life experience than you might guess but if it makes you feel better no worries. I have worked with Help the Aged, CAB, two refugee organisations, multiple social services. But yeah I know nothing. And I come from a working class family, got booted out of college and know a fair amount about being disabled. But of course your right.

Porn, prostitution? Never mentioned either but ok lets get to that... why do organisations like object do so much in the press about LDCs which are legal and yet for all the words have done so little about trafficking and brothels.

MrsClown middle class? Good background? Further Education? And this gives you the right to decide if other women work or not?

Mrs Clown, I think the only intention in labelling people is to patronise, nothing else.

Ticks quite a few boxes on this list of People You Will Meet In Discussions On Sexism On The Internet.

But don't forget to add to the list:

Mr You're Wasting Your Time On Unimportant Things. - Why are you getting into a lather about silly things like porn, prostitution, pink toys for girls? There's nothing wrong with these things. If you were really serious, you'd be doing something about sexism in __ (insert country or culture here) or things that really matter."

Mr You're Too Privileged To Understand What It's Like for Women Who REALLY Suffer. How dare you think that you know enough about working class/black/Muslim/Lesbian/disabled/abused women to say you know what they want when you're all privileged and educated. Everything you know comes from books and nothing from life.

Ok Tony - I'm curious about something which you might be able to shed light on having known lots of girls who have worked in LDCs. How many of them were deaf? Amputees? Over the age of 30? Disabled? Had had a mastectomy? Performed when in the third trimester of pregnancy? Had DS?

pmsl @ my spelling of it. And yes it is the wrong word. Bottom line so long as it is legal and honest I don't mind the who, when, why, and what. No one has greater rights than anyone else.

PMSL at 'begrudge'.

Actually lets clarify that, I believe in equal pay, I believe in equal rights, I believe in equal standing in front of the law and I believe in freedom of choice so long as the choice does not break laws. For both sexes equally no matter colour or creed.

I am against those that would impose their will who do not have the mandate of the people and who bend the truth, lie or otherwise mislead people to support their own agenda. Remember in Hackney when two thirds of the people came out in favour of striptease? Where was the mandate for a nil policy under those guidelines?

I could go on but the point is I do not brgrudge women being equal it is to do with some of the campaigns I am against.

Dear Tony, sometimes people come on Mumsnet and other feminist sites to pose as feminists and say silly things to discredit them. Until you learn to distinguish between these and genuine feminist posts you are never going to have anything sensible to say about feminists ('designer' or not) based on what you read online and are going to look a bit naive into the bargain. If I were you I would start by reading a few mainstream feminist books. The Equality Illusion by Kat Banyard is very good. Also try Living Dolls by Natasha Walter.
Hope that helps

No not to trash feminist, to trash designer feminists.

So, your purpose in coming to the Feminist discussion board is to trash feminists. Right. I gathered that from the start.

Ok so more than once on this thread I have been asked who or what are designer feminists. This is a cut down version taken from the strippingtheillusion blog by Chasmal

The phrase was created to refer to certain self appointed 'elite' of third wave feminists that choose to focus on issues that are relatively unimportant on the landscape of feminist struggle, but are nonetheless worthy of favourable media publicity that can be later harnessed for the benefit of the activist(s) in question.

Designer feminists tend to be drawn from relatively privileged backgrounds and are very well educated and see themselves as a moral template that should be followed by everyone else without question.

Designer feminists obsess about female exploitation, but choose lap dancing clubs as their battleground and ignore anything that isn?t media friendly, such as the hundreds of office cleaners that almost certainly are exploited on a daily basis. The issue here is that there is no public outrage or concern about office cleaners, they are invisible and how many of them clean floors and tidy the offices of Object activists?

Designer feminists choose safe targets such as lapdancing clubs that they accuse being full of trafficked sex slaves and ignore the brothels in every town and city that are full of trafficked people. Its easier to take on a club with a law abiding owner than a gangster run brothel.

Designer feminists probably think that Elizabeth Cady Stanton is an expensive knitwear designer and therefore do not know that she said...

?Human beings lose their logic in their vindictiveness?.
'Were you paid by your pimps?' - Object activist (and don't we just know who it was) to pro stripper speaker.

'Woman will always be dependent until she holds a purse of her own'.
So forgive me if I observe that Objects most high profile campaign so far aims to make hundreds of women unemployed.

Women have crucified the Mary Wollstonecrafts, the Fanny Wrights, and the George Sands of all ages. Men mock us with the fact and say we are ever cruel to each other.
A Mumsnet contributor referring to strippers as being 'gender traitors of the highest order....second only to prostitutes'

The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of women's emancipation.
Objects alliance of convenience with islamic conservatives in Tower Hamlets comes to mind here

There is more but think this is enough to give people an understanding of what some people are seeing as designer feminists.

So ok you are not going to answer the simple question what would you call me if I called a feminist a bimbo?

I know but fortunately I can see the funny side of anything.

So let me ask all the feminists here a question if I described a woman (in a derogatory way) as a bimbo what would you say I was?

I think you know I wasn't shuddering at any kind of feminist, designer or otherwise.

What part dont you understand? :)

Your post makes absolutely no sense. Ah well.

If you want to know go find out from the blog. I am not going to recite 5 blog entries to make the point. If you don't want to know well thats up to you. I don't know if there is a word limit but if there is this would definately fill it. As for the term a leg to stand on, as a bi-lateral amputee that is possibly one of the funniest things said. In terms of backing my arguments from my perspective I am more than able to. Lets just say Team Object - Feminism Police putting the F back in Feminism