misandry doesn't exist

First of turnip, so sorry to have ignored you up till now, I'm getting about five replies to every post I make so it's kind of hard to keep up. I haven't read Swift's book, and I guess that's just not the kind of satire I appreciate, however I do understand the point you are trying to make and yes, I do understand the concept of satire.

I do ask you though, if Solanas's book had been a satire against women do you think you would have still appreciated it as a good satire? If so what other satires with women as the butt of the joke have you enjoyed?

OK already! I am an Australian woman who has fought for feminist rights but also believes in justice for men. Is that enough to make me an outcast on this page?

I saw someone getting a little smart arse on me, and I note, being just a tad sexist against men (always harder to spot isn't it?) by suggesting that a man would have to ask others for suggestions, he'd leave the hard work to the women. Here we have a tiny little example of misandry. Ask yourself: if genders had been swapped and it had been suggested that a woman had to ask men for suggestions would that have been construed as sexist and misogynistic?

My reason for phrasing it that was simply the hope I had that we might put our differences aside for a short while in order to work for something greater than our petty differences of opinion. In asking for other people's suggestions I was trying to foster some co-operation. I would like to do something about it, but I honestly don't know what - and at least I have the courage to admit that. I still haven't heard anyone make any suggestions and I am asking not just the women but the men on this thread too for ideas on what we could do about the infanticide of baby girls.

You know what? I am going to say something that I KNOW will invoke scorn upon me, but I will be honest (get your ammunition ready) I could not read much of the SCUM manifesto, I found it upsetting and I gave up on it. I await the inevitable onslaught :) I will even concede this point, perhaps it is a satire and I missed it.

I will however once again ask all of you: if this satire had had women as the targets do you think you would have appreciated it just as much? And what satire have you enjoyed and appreciated where women - or perhaps even feminists - were the satirical targets?

Frothy Dragon, you also have a very valid point and yes I am far more outraged by two women getting killed in real life in the UK than by a satirical book. I am curious to know though, if such a book had been written by a man with women as the targets, do you think he would have been accused of misogyny?

Turnip I have answered your questions. Have you also noticed that Nyac has not answered a fair number of my questions? Should I get on her case about that or is it ok with you if she ignores my questions?

See, we have the comedy geniuses in FWR...

And thanks to sinicalsanta, we have the poets, too...

You'll like this then Lilly.

It's an article on the Good Men Project site talking about how the solution to most of the problems MRAs complain about is more feminism.

That's a lovely sentiment Lilly.
That's what feminists do.

The patriarchy hurts men too

Lilly you wrote:

"My firm belief is that this world will become a better place when men and women stop fighting each other and realize that we're all human and we need each other.

Why can't we work together as humans to make this world a better place for all of us without drawing lines that place people of the opposite sex as the enemy?"

Set that to music and you might be in with a chance to enter the Eurovision song contest.

Re-enact of course.

Whoever says Feminists don't have a sense of humour OBVIOUSLY hasn't spent enough time here...

Oh I'm loving this. Whoever says feminists don't have a sense of humour needs to get out more!

Lilly Of course men never reinact anything they see on the big screen...

radfemworldnews.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/boys-men-never-re-enact-what-they-see-onscreen-say-jedi-kittens/

And I love the clips to this post, to continue with the laughter!

Now you mention it, Turnip, I do think DS would cook quite well in a stew... Eradicating men AND children in one go... Do I get extra points?

Dworkin there's a very funny passage in the Malcolm Bradbury novel Stepping Westward where a visiting literature lecturer tries to teach 'A Modest Proposal' to a group of unsophisticated students and they can't grasp the satire and think he's advocating baby eating and complain about him to the university authorities.

Hi Sinical Santa,

Thanks again for your reply, I appreciate you taking your time to rebut my answers and some of your replies make great sense.

Yes, it sucks that women who are raped so seldom receive true justice. This saddens me and I would do anything to change this situation.

Woman horribly mutilates man to fanfare by loons. Well we're not talking loons here, we're talking about an entire audience of women and the cast of a TV show called The Talk. Sharon Osborn described the incident as being fabulous or wonderful and all the women in the cast and audience were laughing uproariously about it. Can you really imagine an audience of men laughing at a woman being raped?

Stupid man on TV? Is it always about laundry? I thought it was a bit more global than that.

Valerie = Hitler? No I didn't say that, and didn't mean it. I was trying to draw a parallel. Nyac's point about Godwin's is well taken, but there are parallels there. That's different to saying Solanis = Hitler, right? Both of them used the language of hatred and discrimination and argued for the persecution of a different group. Yes Hitler was "successful" and Solanis was not, but what if her ideas had taken off? Can we be sure that people have not been killed due to Solanis's ideas? Are we sure she does not have her own band of fanatical followers who would or perhaps have killed men simply for their gender?

Family court. Well yes there are more dead beat dads, but then again dad's rarely win custody so they're far more often going to be the ones in the position of having to pay and for every dead beat dad there are many more dads who do the right thing. One fact remains: even accounting for the greater number of fathers not paying a woman is far less likely to be jailed - even when taking the proportions into account. For the same "crime" a woman is less likely to be jailed. On that subject, a woman is also less likely to be jailed than a man - once again this takes the proportions into account, and a man is likely to be given a larger sentence for the same crime as a woman.

Look I know that discrimination occurs against women all the time, but why can we not acknowledge that men can be the victims of gender stereotyping too? Why do we dismiss this kind of discrimination while emphasizing case of discrimination against women?

My firm belief is that this world will become a better place when men and women stop fighting each other and realize that we're all human and we need each other.

Why can't we work together as humans to make this world a better place for all of us without drawing lines that place people of the opposite sex as the enemy?

Anyway Lilly, you want us to give you some ideas to help fight female infanticide, so I asked you twice where in the world you are located and what your gender is. (No point in advising you to join a UK organisation, or suggesting a march you can go on that's women only, if you're a bloke in the States, you see.)

I don't know why you keep ignoring me, anyone would think you weren't really sincere and were just trying to do a 'gotcha' at Nyac

But if they had, Frothy, would you be against or in favour? Would you be joining the party or fighting it?

arf....

Jonathan Swift was just like Hitler.

I was trying to think of the name of the Swift text, so thank you, Turnip...

As far as I'm aware, incidents of child eating didn't rise as a result of that text...

jesus, there are still people who take the SCUM manifesto seriously? It's an obvious parody because every statement made about men has at one point been said about women, with the notable difference that the statements said about women were made in all seriousness, and taken seriously and believed.

A woman gets raped. Most people think she's partly to blame by being drunk/wearing revealing clothing/out by herself/female. Or else they think she's lying and it's actually sex she later regrets. Men (and some women) make rape jokes that normalise rape and make it seem less of a crime. Facebook refuses to take down 'joke' pro-rape pages because they're only a bit of fun.

Women are portrayed as smarter then men at using certain cleaning products, big sodding whoop dee whoop. It doesn't benefit women to be seen as the only people capable of spraying a bottle of chemicals on a work surface, it does otoh benefit men.

Women are portrayed as victims on TV shows. Vulnerable and weak, men are strong and clever even when they're evil psychotic killers, and he is only brought down by an equally strong and clever male. Think CSI in all it's forms, it's a clever Grisham, Caine, Taylor who puts all the pieces together and goes out to catch the villain. It does not benefit women to be portrayed as weak and vulnerable, only suited to be killed early on in an episode in a horrible, degrading way, or as a side-kick to the far superior male lead character.

It's no more sexist against men to award the primary carer of a child custody, than it is unfair discrimination to promote the hard-working employee over the lazy. Men have the option of changing the way custody decisions are made by changing the way they parent while still in a relationship with the mother. If they take on more parenting responsibilities then their claims to custody will be more or less equal to the mothers. AFAICT MRAs are trying to do away with the ''primary carer'' factor, it's the only advantage women have but it was made through sacrifice, often sacrificing careers and promotion prospects. Very few men seem willing to make these sacrifices. Why do you think parental responsibilities are called parental responsibilities, and not parental rights?

Lilly, have you read A Modest Proposal by Jonathan Swift? It's great. And I say that as someone who is implacably opposed to expecting poor people to eat their children.
I'm worried you don't seem to understand what satire means.

Not for want of trying?

LOLOL.

Can't really take you seriously Lilly.

they don't need any sort of manifesto, in Asia say, where the abortion and infanticide of female babies means there is a demographic imbalance of 100 Million women.

Like I said: puddle v ocean

Have you actually read the SCUM manifesto, Lilly?

Solanas wasn''t trying to get men massacred. She was providing an introspective, satirical look at society. The thing is, in the UK, we really do have two women a week massacred by former or ex partners. Doesn't that enrage you more than a fictional, satirical text?

Case by case:

A woman gets raped. No justice in the vast majority of cases.

Woman horribly mutilates man to fanfare by loons. Very easy to switch genders there. Fanfare by loons remain.

Stupid man on commercial: Women should really stick to what they know best, laundry, and enabling men's minor failings.

TV shows where it's a good/bad thing a man/woman was killed. Was it because he was a decent hardworking family man and left everybody in peace? Does the camera linger lovingly over her cold & bloody flesh? Context is important.

Family court: How many men are the primary carers before the split? How many men prioritise their careers and earning potential? How often do you come across a dead beat mum, in RL? Probably equivalent to the amount of times you hear the phrase.

Valarie Solanis = Hitler?
That is just the exact same thing.

Nothing proved there Lilly.

Nyac, you are right The SCUM manifesto never did lead to the massacre of millions, but not for the want of trying.

I see that you take this book lightly and are not at all offended by it. It is a satire you say. Don't I get it you ask.

Tell me something Nyac, and be honest. If a book had been written saying that all women were evil and had ruined the world and should be slaughtered, do you think you would have taken it quite so lightly? Is there a small chance you may have called the author a misogynist? You implied that I was misogynist simply for speaking my mind and saying that misandry exists, now look at the scale of misandry in the SCUM Manifesto - oh that's right - you don't believe misandry exists.

The fact is that if you have such a strong belief that misandry does not exist, then you will filter any and all contradictory facts in such a way that your belief is validated. The most horrific things can be said about men and you will find a way to explain how this is not misandry, while the slightest whiff of disagreement with your ideals will instantly attract the charge of "misogyny".

Another thing I'd ask you Nyac, if you can suspend disbelief and use your imagination on this one: how would you feel if a large number of women did start to act on the SCUM manifesto? How would you feel if it took hold politically and people actually started exterminating men simply for being the gender they were.

Would you be joining the party or fighting against it?

Lilly, you need to tell us what country you are in and whether you are a man or a woman, so we can suggest the best organisations for you to support. I don't know why you are having a go at Nyac when you have ignored my question.