misandry doesn't exist

SM tell me how you feel about unspoken male shortlists, where the selection committee turn down all the women candidates either because they themselves don't want a woman MP or because they believe (rightly or wrongly) that a woman stands less chance than a man of getting elected?
What would your solution be? Or does the problem not need a solution because you don't think it matters?

I think we really need to get over the unfairness that women give birth. It's a biological reality, not a choice. It shouldn't give us special rights. Men should be given more paternity leave. My DH would have loved to have been given more time off work, he was gutted when he HAD to go back.

And you're also missing the point that the majority of women don't see it as a problem, and can understand the reasons behind it. We all have choices. Men nuture the next generation too. I feel I can function fully in this world. I do function fully in this world.

SM most parties have all male shortlists.

By default

And no-one notices because that's the norm.

We've internalised it so successfully, that we consider it meritocracy when it isn't - it's just men choosing other people they feel comfortable with, who happen to be men.

You really do have a lot of reading to do. I second Kat Banyard's The Equality Illusion

I come from asia - definetely oodles of patriachy all over the place. I came here expecting to see some sort of egalitarian society. I was shocked.

1. I was mildly interested to see what porn/erotica would be around for women. All I could see was all the page 3 stuff aimed at men. Nothing for women. (I know if I dig I can find something for women - but the stuff for men - you can't avoid it. Thats my point)
2. The rape myths - There the first thing is "what was she wearing". The first thing over here is (surprise surprise...) "what was she wearing"!! Or look at her makeup - she looks 14!! What does she expect! Of course she's going to be raped.
3. Not many women working with me. I was an IT developer and almost all the handful of women on my floor were PA, secretary types. Naturally, because the girls are all told while they grow up that boys do math, girls do barbie....

1. Of course all the politicians etc - mostly male.

'The Labour party has copped alot of flak for having women only shortlists'

As it should. I totally disagree with it.

Kritiq didn't Cameron have woman-only shortlists at the last election? IIRC he copped a lot of flack from his party for it. (I would imagine it was his party more than any other that desperately needed them.)

Bless you, I think you've got some more reading to do SM.
You need to start with the basics really. The Equality Illusion by Kat Banyard is probably as good place to start as any.
Reclaiming The F-Word would be worthwhile too.

Sahara, it's a bit tricky being so insistent that you are right when you hten say, "Maybe there aren't many women standing as candidates? Who knows?"

The Labour party has copped alot of flak for having women only shortlists. None of the other major parties (someone correct me if I'm wrong) have any specific measures to encourage equal representation of the sexes in the selection of those who will stand for by elections or at general election.

Sure, you, I, any woman can stand for any election, but with out the financial and supporter "backing" of a political party, your chances of success are somewhat akin to the proverbial snowball in Hell.

In the last election I voted for, there were no female candidates on the ballot - not a single one. There were no non-white candidates, or candidates under the age of 40 for that matter. Hobson's choice anyone?

I don't like to sound patronising SaharaMerchant but you do sound very naive. Didn't you realise woman would-be candidates are discriminated against at the selection stage? Hence the perennial calls for all-woman shortlists.

Boys don't lag behind girls anymore in primary school (or so I read).

And girls lag behind boys at university and in terms of pay at work.

So, really who is losing out here? I trust you don't imagine many women at university are 'choosing to prioritize their families' (or whatever euphemism it was you used for 'getting shafted for procreating while being female').

Sahara, I can't lay my hands on the info at the moment, but I know evidence shows that the pay gap is no different even for women who haven't had children, so it's not just down to women taking time out to have and raise children.

As for literacy and educational attainment, in not all localities is it the case that boys achieve less than girls. There are some areas - for example one I work in where girls lag consistently behind scores for boys. It's a very working class area. It's also an area with high rates of teen pregnancy where evidence shows girls and young women have very little control over their own sexuality, lack in self-esteem and are likely to be tolerant of abusive and controlling behaviour from boyfriends.

I would say the poverty and lack of opportunities compounds their social, economic and political exclusion, but that isn't the only source of it. Otherwise, we'd be seeing equal numbers of boys and young men who report being forced to have sex, having equally low levels of attainment, and experiencing abuse and control in their relationships.

The government cabinet consists (mainly) of MP's elected by their constituents. We are constituants, I'm not sure how many voting age constituants there are in this country but I would imagine men and women are roughly 50/50.

So we voted for them. If women want more women MP's then they need to vote for them. It's not unfair. Also, maybe there aren't many women standing as candidates? Who knows, but they could if they wanted to.

Boys lag behind girls significantly in literacy so we should start here? Remind me of the figures, is the difference greater than Ethiopia where only 18 per cent of women can read and write compared with 42 per cent of men?

SM the very reason that women are disadvantaged by the way the workplace is structured, is because it was structured for people who had no caring responsibilities and no domestic labour to do.

In the main, that was men, who had wives to keep their houses clean and bring up their children for them.

The workplace has not changed to recognise that that model is completely inappropriate and out of date for the 21st century. Women need to take time out to bear and nurture babies and that is valuable work for society. They should not be penalised for that. It is insane that the human race, has decided to punish the half of it which bears and nurtures its next generation, with poverty. Oops, but that's because the human race didn't decide that - the half that don't bear the children did. That's patriarchy. And they still haven't changed the structures, so that the other half of humanity can function fully in the world.

Also, wherever I go, the media messages, posters etc. I encounter, remind me that women are the sex class.

Men don't have that problem.

SM in the UK

1 in 4 women get raped or sexually assaulted. 1 in 4 men don't.

Between 70-90% of women who ahve been raped, don't bother to report it - a criminal offence - to the police, either because they have internalised rape myths and are in denial about what happened to them, or because they know that there is no point complaining. No other area of crime, has such a high level of non reporting becasue the victims fear they will be blamed for the crime or that they will be disbelieved (only 2-4% of rape allegations are false, but the other 98 - 96% are also presumed to be lying).

There is a pay gap. Women still get paid less than men just because they are women.

1 in 4 women live with ongoing, serious, chronic Domestic Violence. 1 in 4 men don't.

Men get on average, about 15 hours more leisure time per week, because women do more work than men, much of which is unpaid, unvalued and not recognised as work as it occurs in the home.

Men are richer than women. Poverty is a gendered issue.

Most MP's, judges, CEO's, politicians, media decision makers, business decision makers, are men.

2 women a week are murdered by men. Of those, most of them are partners or ex partners and most have a history of violence which was ignored by the police, courts and society.

Still think the patriarchy is dead?

If a woman works the same hours as a man, takes 2 weeks maternity leave, doesn't ask for flexi time etc...she gets paid the same. I've been reading about the glass ceiling debate. That seems fair to me. Women tend to prioritise family life over work, which is fine, but you can't expect to get paid the same, as the company is out of pocket when you take time off etc.

I personally wouldn't want to give birth and be back at work 2 weeks later.

As for equal literacy, I think we should start with the boys in our own country, as they lag behind girls significantly.

Why are you only talking about the UK SaharaMerchant? Doesn't the rest of the world matter? Feminism is global in its aims.

The 1 in 4 figure for rape and sexual assault is UK. The UK has a pay gap. The UK is far from having an equal number of men and women in government. The UK has a serious problem with domestic violence. The UK still has problems with sex discrimination in the workplace and unequal media representation of women. The UK has thousands of trafficked women working in the sex industry.
This is more than a trace of patriarchy.

Glad you mentioned intersectionality, and particularly Crenshaw-Williams' concept of it. It recognises that there isn't a simple "scientific" formula of privilege and oppression (i.e. you don't get a plus point for being white and a minus point for being female, or any variation on that theme,) but that there can be a unique experience for individuals whose identity IS at an intersection between 2 or more identities.

In my experience, feminism, probably more so than the political ideologies of those who advocate for the rights of other oppressed groups, tend to be more inclusive in their definition and less likely to buy into a hierarchy of oppressions (i.e. it's worse being female than being black, it's worse being Lesbian than being gay, etc.)

So, you can be an advocate for women's rights and for workers rights, you can be an activist for women's rights and an anti-racist campaigner, etc. etc. without conflict.

Having said that, some feminists can struggle with "wearing" the privileges that some women enjoy while others don't. I think that can be the case for anyone who fights for the rights of any disadvantaged group where inevitably some within that group will still have more privileges than others, due to things like ethnicity, language, gender, sexual orientation, etc.

So yes, working class women can experience the impact of patriarchal institutions, traditions, practices, etc. in a different way than middle and upper class women do. For example, working class women may be unable to take an extended period of maternity leave from work if they need to get back to their full earning potential as soon as possible. Middle class women who had the benefits of a good education may have more earning potential if their relationship breaks down than a working class woman who's only done manual labour.

However, regardless of class, education or other privileges, women can still be raped by men, can still be abused by partners, can still be denied equality of opportunity in employment, are still judged on the basis of their appearance rather than their achievements in society, etc.

S/he is just from the planet of denial. One only has to read the newspaper in order to see the good ol' patriarchy in action. It's full of things like stories about men waging war against each other's countries, men raping women and children, double standard shit about female celebs, page 3...

'Because we're in 2012, and I can assure you there is more than a trace of patriarchy in our world.'

In the world, yes, but I'm talking about the UK..

What year are you from? I want to know how long we have to wait for no pay gap, far less than 1 in 4 women raped or seriously sexually assaulted, no countries in the world where there are no women at all in government, equal literacy rates worldwide, no forced marriage, no FGM, no military use of rape....

Are you a time traveller from the future?

Because we're in 2012, and I can assure you there is more than a trace of patriarchy in our world.

Wow, are you serious?
Read 'Half the Sky'. Really.

Oh ... so it does still exist?

Why do you think there's not 'much' of it left, then? Can you have 'not much' of an entity or ideology?