Atheism and misogyny

?Relax your anus, it hurts less that way.? (+1715, -648)

Followed by

?Blood is mother nature?s lubricant.? (+570, -175)

How are those not in any way to the girl.

Apols for repeating content but FGS it's not like there were a few chaps saying "ooh she's quite nice looking I'd quite like to see her drawers" or something.

ecclesvet what on earth are you talking about? If they had posted them in a private facebook group then I could see your POV but on a conversational thread it is a little different.

I also don't see how anyone can be certain (unless they have read the entire thing and know the people in question) that all of the comments were "jokes" or that none were posted "at" her.

"I thought she posted it in an athiest sub-community of reddit?"

As I have said many times now on this thread, top posts on the atheist sub-community of reddit are also cross-posted to the main page of reddit. As I said before it is as if you posted on Feminism but your thread was also linked to from AIBU and Chat and then you use the content of that thread to slate feminists. Except Reddit is global and Mumsnet is tiny in comparison. The homepage of Reddit is visited by 0.8% of all global users of the internet. They serve 1.6 billion pages per month. 21.5 million people visit the site every month. That's an awful lot of potential contributors to that thread. In comparison the atheism subreddit has about 350,000 subscribers, so to suggest that the actions on that thread are the fault of the reddit atheists when millions of other users could have seen and contributed to it is a bit of a stretch.

"And do 15yo girls really post photos of their faces holding books in order to illicit men to say they want to kidnap and rape them, in very graphic language?"

No, of course not, and I have never said that. I have said that rape threats would and should not be the expected response. I have also said that a jolly thread soley about atheism would not be the expected response. However, women on reddit do on occasion post photos of their faces holding geeky books in order to elicit responses which sexually objectify them and in order to get upvotes based on their attractiveness rather than the purported topic of discussion.

"It's exactly the same as saying, well she went out in a short skirt after dark"

No it's not. It is saying that she went to a particular site on the internet with particular rules and a particular way of doing things and posted in a particular way on that site which would be recognised and responded to in a particular way, so wondering why she got a non-atheist discussion response to a reference to her anus is silly when the answer is obvious. She also got plenty of atheist discussion, btw. And she also got horrific rape threats which is completely unacceptable and which have been condemned by many on reddit and which have also been condemned by me, a point which some on here seem intent on missing.

Not at all sq, i totally agree, and am impressed at the lengths some people will go to in order to make this be about the girl in question - what she said, how she said it etc

let's absolutely not talk about the posters who said on that thread that blood and tears were nature's lubricants, oh no

let's not talk about the legion of atheists (and others) who did not then leap on those posters and tell them to stop saying rapey shit to a 15 year old

yup, she should have known.

fwiw the atheist community/atheists as a cohort will be just as misogynist as the rest of the culture

"could they not have restrained from posting rape fantasies to her"

But they didn't do that. They posted rape jokes amongst themselves, albeit recklessly as she could see it too.

I suppose my point is, they knew this was a real life girl who was 15 and had posted something innocuous, could they not have restrained from posting rape fantasies to her? Is that really too much to ask? I just don't think it is. But apparently I am in a minority there.

"She shouldn't have expected a nice conversation about atheism given the community she was posting to and the thread she posted. If she did then it is not victim-blaming to point out that she should be expected to know the basic rules of how a community works before posting to it. That is nothing to do with her being female"

How is it nothing to do with her being female? The males who had posted pictures of themselves with books didn't get lots of men saying stuff like that to them.

The idea seems to be that in real life and on the internet, some places are no go areas and if women are stupid enough to go there then they get what's coming to them. I think that is wrong. The fact that it is widely accepted to make these comments to a 15yo girl on teh internet reflects the fact that so many people think the same is true of real life - and that if anything bad happens to a female it must be because they didn't understand the rules properly, they were reckless, they put themselves at risk and all the rest of it. Nothing to be said at all about the fact that such places even exist, and that it is widely accepted that they exist as just a normal thing.

It's a terrible state of affairs.

I thought she posted it in an athiest sub-community of reddit? And do 15yo girls really post photos of their faces holding books in order to illicit men to say they want to kidnap and rape them, in very graphic language?

I keep reading what you are saying and absolutely you are saying that she should have known better and she was asking for it.

It's exactly the same as saying, well she went out in a short skirt after dark, what did she expect, she should have anticipated what she would be walking into.

"I don't understand why you think the author should not have a complaint about what happened to this girl, your idea is that there are worse things out there?"

I don't think that at all. Again you seem to be putting words into my mouth. I said that this incident was terrible and that it was reasonable to write about it in horror. It is unreasonable to write about it as an example of how atheists are awful.

"That she should have known better than to post a pic, she should have known better than to use certain slang, she should have known. That's what people always say when women end up in bad situations. "

"she posted a picture of herself with a book in order to talk about athiesm"

If you post to an internet community then it is not unreasonable to expect that you have some awareness of the community to which you are posting and how it works. On Reddit, if a pretty female posts a picture of herself with a geeky object then that looks like karma whoring. It is not unreasonable to expect a redditor to know what karma whoring is. If you want a serious discussion of atheism and you post a picture that looks like karma whoring, then you definitely shouldn't refer to your anus. I am not saying and have never said that rape threats are or should be the expected response to that situation. But any regular poster on Reddit would know that a karma whoring picture followed by an anus reference would not kick off a nice atheism debate, so the comments about how this 15 year old rocked up to an atheist community (it isn't) and posted a nice post about what her mum got her for Christmas and didn't get a nice discussion about atheism, isn't that appalling are just showing a complete ignorance of Reddit. She shouldn't have expected a nice conversation about atheism given the community she was posting to and the thread she posted. If she did then it is not victim-blaming to point out that she should be expected to know the basic rules of how a community works before posting to it. That is nothing to do with her being female and it is also not saying that the rules of that community are good or right.

I'm sure you don't mean it like that, but saying, well there are sexists all over reddit, she should have known better, posting a picture, it's karma whoring, it was obvious what was going to happen, reddit is well known for it - all that type stuff - I can see why you are saying it but it's basic victim blaming stuff. That she should have known better than to post a pic, she should have known better than to use certain slang, she should have known. That's what people always say when women end up in bad situations.

She was 15, she posted a picture of herself with a book in order to talk about athiesm, then hundreds of men told her they wanted to rape her anally until she bled. How would you feel?

I can't see any posts on here that suggest that they agree with the author of the article? Who are you arguing with? The comments on this thread have all said that they think some men are sexist etc and obviously athiest men are not immune to this. So everyone on this thread has the same POV as you and so I'm not sure why you are going on about it.

I don't understand why you think the author should not have a complaint about what happened to this girl, your idea is that there are worse things out there? Well of course there are but it doesn't stop this incident being really bad.

And I really do see your comments as amounting to she was asking for it, what did she expect...

"the post she made referencing her anus wasn't helpful in encouraging serious replies"
"referencing her anus wasn't helpful in encouraging serious replies. It is exactly the sort of thing that redditors would pick up and run with in any context."
"Perhaps you need to understand that on reddit, it is not uncommon for women to post pictures of themselves with a cute cat or geeky t-shirt or whatever ostensibly to show off the cat or shirt but actually to entice comments as to their attractiveness and upvotes for this reason. It is part of something called karma whoring. So if a pretty girl posts a picture of herself with a geeky book and in the comments refers to her anus, it would not be surprising if posters replied with banter that was not a serious philosophical discussion of her Carl Sagan book.

When I read these comments, I feel that they amount to what did she expect, she was asking for it.

SQ the author of the article in the OP says she hates her fellow atheists and writes an article about how sexist these fellow atheists are. Of course it is not off topic to dismiss any link between atheist and sexism. It's the title of the thread fgs. And people have been speculating as to why atheists in particular might be sexist. Stop trying to shout down my right to reply.

I didn't say anywhere that she was asking for it, what did she expect, so please fuck off putting words into my mouth. I have said many times now that there is no justifying the comments that she received, that reddit can be horribly misogynistic.

When I said she wasn't encouraging serious replies with her reference to her anus, I didn't say that she was encouraging rape threats. Merely that if she was seeking a serious debate about atheism, she would have done better to have avoided flippant comments of that sort, and not merely because she is female.

What particularly annoys me about the article in the OP is that the author claims to be a regular user of reddit yet appears to be ignorant of the fact that the atheism subreddit posts to the main page. That people who post on atheism submissions are probably more likely to have come from the great Internet unwashed than a select band of atheists. Thus her blaming atheists in particular for this undoubtably horrible reaction is stupid, it hasn't come from an atheist community, but from Reddit, which is huge. If she wanted to write an article about misogyny on Reddit, on the sexism behind karma whoring through using photos of pretty girls, on the /gonewild section or jailbait or any other number of things which spring to mind I'd be right behind her. But she seems to have a chip on her shoulder about sexist atheists in particular and seems to be trying to spinning this incident to suit her own ends.

I'm not trying to be nasty or provocative they do just genuinely make me feel a bit uncomfortable.

noblegiraffe I am sure that no-one on here takes this as evidence that all athiests are sexist monsters.

So that is a bit off topic really.

I am really uncomfortable with your comments that amount to she was asking for it, what did she expect etc.

Also occurred to me last night - the fact that the girl was 15. These comments would have been really out of order whether she was 16 or 36 or 56. Imagine posting somewhere about a book that you have had for christmas on athiesm and the responses being that hundreds of men want to rape you anally and make you bleed and cry. How you you feel about that? I would be shocked and upset.

I think the point is that lots of people (wrongly) when they discover that they "are feminists" assume that they will find more support / sympathy / understanding within certain areas of society. So they assume that lefty types will be more inclined towards a feminist POV than right wing types. And that athiest types will be more naturally feministy than religious types.

To find that actually everyone is just as bad as each other when it comes to sexism is a bit of a shocker. The tirade at this girl on a website to discuss athieism (sp) probably comes as a surprise to a lot of people as they would have hoped for better on a website to discuss a fairly serious and grown-up topic.

I don't think there is any excuse for the way that she was treated.

"You can have the last say"....and Dworkin continues posting with an insult.

My generation? What generation would that be?

I'm not sure how my comments about atheism being irrelevant to misogyny in this context (and I would argue further, in any context) are 'spurious to the actual post' in a thread entitled 'Atheism and misogyny?'.

I'm an atheist. I've read a lot of atheist literature on the internet and off and I have never seen anything that argues that an atheist should be an arsehole to women. I've seen plenty of atheist literature arguing against the religious oppression of women, which would be odd if they are all misogynists, no? If you are an atheist, you don't believe in God. That's it. Nothing else follows automatically, there is no atheist creed. If Rebecca Watson has discovered that Richard Dawkins is a bit of a dick then what does that say about atheism? Nothing. If Rebecca Watson has said that the atheism subreddit has fostered an intense hatred of fellow atheists then she's an idiot. Does she hate the 15 year old atheist who posted about her Sagan book? Obviously not, yet she's an atheist. What she actually hates is tossers who post shit on the internet, and men who treat women badly. And there are plenty enough of them about in every walk of life.

I'm really not sure what you're getting at. Are you going to find a misogynistic comment that was made by an atheist and then try to link the two like forkful did earlier with the bizarre comment about biological determinism?

I have never denied that there are misogynists who are also atheists. I don't think that if you want to argue that there's a connection between the two (I'm dubious) that you can use a thread on reddit to do this.

Try the ones referred to in the article you linked to in the OP.

Erm Dworkin, it is plain that some of the comments made to the 15 year old girl were horrifically misogynistic. I didn't dispute that. It's rather bizarre that you seem to be insinuating that I might.