the dumbing down of the secretarial profession. Why?

Well, it depends on what you mean by Secretary - a lot of admin work in the past wasn't done by the secretary, but the 'typing pool', receptionists and office juniors, which weren't respected roles.

Secretary/PA roles now can vary massively. I know PA's on £60k, I know PA's on £20k, the jobs are very different. Those at the lower end aren't really respected roles, those at the top end usually as basically running the lives of their employers.

The poster asked for a definition of a profession, I gave one.

However, your point about anesthetists being in a support role doesn't quite make sense because (you may not be aware of this) they would have had to follow the same training and qualify as a doctor as the surgeon before specialising so would be part of the same profession. Hardly the same thing as a secretary.

Also, members of the Cabinet do not have to posess any academic or professional qualifications at all, so I'm afraid that example is of no use either.

Well I'll tell you Pendeen, I don't get hung up on titles such as you do. My previous job as as an executive PA to a very high profile person that you would more than likely know.

I did a professional job and I consider myself a professional.

Um, I don't follow? Your definition says nothing about support work not being professional?

Well, here's just one:

" A disciplined group of individuals who adhere to high ethical standards and uphold themselves to, and are accepted by, the public as possessing special knowledge and skills in a widely recognised, organised body of learning derived from education and training at a high level, and who are prepared to exercise this knowledge and these skills in the interest of others .

Inherent in this definition is the concept that the responsibility for the welfare, health and safety of the community shall take precedence over other considerations "

" Examples of professions include "

" health related?doctors, dentists, physiotherapists, podiatrists, pharmacists "

" non-health related?architects, chartered engineers, veterinary surgeons, chartered surveyors, lawyers "

There are many similar definitions, if you care to look.

A secretary - one who's primary function is to support the work of another - cannot be regarded as a member of a profession.

Aren't loads of professions support roles? Being an anesthetist is a support role, but also a part of a respected profession and being a member of the cabinet is a support role to the PM.

Pendeen, sorry,not sure what you mean. What is the definition of a profession??

It's not a profession, it's a support role by definition.

Hmm, well in the city being a secretary/PA is pretty well paid - generally £30k+ per annum, more if you work for senior people. Not bad for a job that is generally 9-5 with limited take home pressure. As such we get a lot of graduates applying.

I think technology has almost made the job redundant. Years ago I worked as an Administrator at a top Russell Group University and I had my own Secretary, completely unnecessary. In the last organisation I worked for only the MD had a Secretary, everyone else was responsible for their own admin. I'm self-employed now and whilst it would be nice to get someone to do all the fancy spreadsheets I couldn't really imagine what else they could do for me. I think these days people are looking for a deputy, someone who can step in your shoes and do the job in your absence.

When I was a teenager doing work experience in the admin/secretarial section of a large high street bank, I asked the woman who ran the switchboard etc... 'does it not make you angry that all the managers (men) call you the switchboard 'girl'? Her reply - if you sit at a switchboard or keyboard you will always be a girl. This woman had a PhD FFS.

Wilson that is a good point and heartening.

Interesting thread for me as I have a medical background but gave my career up nearly 4 years ago when DD came along.

I applied for a doctors receptionist role when I started looking for work again but was told I was too experienced and should go back to the Emergency services. I didn't want to go back to the anti social hours and I would also need to re-train so that wasn't an option for me.

I had an MD approach me through friends and basically offered me a PA/ secretarial position that became available within a large company (not medical)
I knew nothing about secreterial work but was told it's easy, bit of paperwork and common sense.
I'm 9 months in a full time position working part time hours, suits me for childcare but the secreterial role is looking after 3 managers and 70+ staff, HR, Payroll and daily taking care of.

I'm dissapointed because no-one knows what the role of secretary/PA involves, it's hard work (I don't mind) but I really feel like some people see me as the dogs body of the company. I can be up to my ears in work and still expected to drop everything to make tea for the men managers, it really sticks in my throat, why can't they make their own tea? They can see the machine from their meeting room! Why in 9 months have they never made me a green tea inbetween meetings?

I don't need praise, I'm capable of getting every document for 5 men people ready for them to meet and also type the minutes and arrange times and dates for meetings but I can't help but feel disrespected.

I'm only the secretary, if only they knew.

And that long rant doesn't include how the female reception staff and other female admin staff appear to have some grudge over a PA/secretary because I am involved in managers meetings/their appraisals/deal with their personal files.

I think there's a converse of that as well though brandy which is as other career options have become available to women some of the 'old fashioned' jobs have attracted different types of candidates. So the women who speak 3 languages now can pick and choose, whereas before they were restricted to nursing, teaching or secretarial. That's not to down-grade your Gran's achievements. But in today's world she would most likely be the boss, rather than the secretary. In a sense, that's cheering, no?

what year did she start, brandy?

onelittlefish "DH and I have been having a discussion about a job that was seriously considered to be a serious profession - see above. Secretaries used to be really respected and have a really good general education and be able to speak more than one language. Also, historically it was reasonably well paid."

When do you think that was? In your lifetime?

I think technology has also contributed to the role of a secretary being seen as less these days and all the men have moved to IT.

There are so few women in IT, which is a well paid industry.

I've been a med sec for over 20 years and seen much 'dumbing down' in that time. When I started you had to have the medical secretarial diploma to even get an interview.

I attended a med sec conference at Unison in London last year... we did a brain storming sesh about why we are looked down on these days and get overlooked and paid poorly. I suddenly realised and put my hand up.... 'we are WOMEN DOING WOMEN'S WORK'

scoundrel you need to be looking at Band 4 if you are a med sec. Check out Dept of Health website... Agenda for change job profiles.

scuse shite typing - wine.

Hi nightsky I'm not banded, I work for the surgery and not the NHS. I'm in the SW.

I was once in the lift at work and introduced to the MD of a sister company. I assumed the MD was the competant looking woman standing next to me in the lift, rather than the rather scruffy, smelly unshaven man also in the lift. Wen the people in the lift realised my mistake, there was much mirth and mickey-taking based on the hilarious idea that a woman could be an MD.
Hmmmmmmm.

Oops sorry... just realised that was a bit off-topic and a slight thread hijack

I'm a medical secretary and work place union rep. I'm currently trying to get our title changed to PA. I am worried that we will be downbanded in the forthcoming 'admin review'. Less money, same work.

scoundrel may I ask what band they pay you and what part of the country you are in?

I think that might be a huge part of it, dreamingbohemian.

I think secretaries used to get a certain amount of respect as the sort of caretakers of the office -- the ones who really kept everything on track.

I think this has eroded a great deal because of technology. Nowadays, everyone can type, keep track of their contacts and calendar, etc. So secretaries are not so much doing things that their bosses can't do, but the things that their bosses can't be bothered to do (massive generalisation of course).