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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

I will stop being a feminist when ...

160 replies

garlicnutcracker · 26/12/2011 22:52

Thread prompted by one in AIBU ...

? Women's performance is always evaluated separately from their appearance.
? Women are proportionally represented at all levels in government.
? Half of all CEOs are women, matched equally with men by corporate worth and reward packages.
? Women are proportionally represented at all levels in the judiciary.
? Women carry equal weight in the military and law-enforcement services.
? Half of all wealth is owned by women.
? Women's fertility is not given as an excuse for their disenfrachisement.
? No woman is blamed for her own rape.
? Mainstream pornography does not promote violence against women.
? Mainstream media do not promote the sexualisation of women.
? No woman is expected to tolerate violence against her person.

That'll do for starters.

As a free extra: I will accept that men's rights movements have equal validity when ...

? All of the above.
? Men accept full responsibility, of all kinds, for all of their children, as automatically as women do.

OP posts:
garlicnutcracker · 27/12/2011 00:23

you don't control your own contraception man or woman then you are open to having a child...it's that simple - YY, exactly! Conception is a well-known outcome of intercourse Wink

OP posts:
MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 00:22

HC - strange drum you are banging there.

Mumcentreplus · 27/12/2011 00:22

Don't worry...i don't have an STD..because I said so.... WTF???

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 00:21

GN, the only non paying NRP I have had to tolerate in my social circle (having made active choices not to associate with people who dont support their own children), is DHs ex, also my baby sitters mother who didnt pay maint for years, then demanded a share of the equity in FMH.

More NRPs are male, but, personally, I think, not paying, is perhaps a feature of an NRP regardless of gender.

What I have come to see, from some of the posters on the Fem Sec, is that,

I have often thought it unfair that people like my husband, who was ousted from one of his childrens lives because he was not a main carer (depite being an excellent father) would be better of in a more "feminist" world, because in a world (and this is one such example), where family freindly policies extended to both sexes, less "women" would be main carers, benefitting the womans carer, and the mans ability to care for his own child.

As a public sector worker, it is my, and only my, opinion, that Feminism as it stands, is under going huge leaps and bounds backwards, the first thing that appears to be disappearing are the huge changes in the last few decades in part time and flexible working, which although impacting on both men and women, if clearly affecting women more as a larger proportion of the part time work force is female.

I am seeing a move back to the days when caring for children was, by necessity the domain of one parent (which ever gender), because the working world, was simply not set up to assist the working parent.

HatesCensorship · 27/12/2011 00:21

garlicnutter

You're not getting this are you? It's the woman's choice, if she has sex without whatever contraception (including on the man), and falls pregnant, it's her issue.

And "a dick cover" ruins sex, and they don't fit well endowed men either.

Mumcentreplus · 27/12/2011 00:20

the way I look at it is....you don't control your own contraception man or woman then you are open to having a child...it's that simple..why is it ok for a man to walk away when a women says everything is covered???...sorry but you have left yourself at the mercy of another and obviously too lazy to give a shit

AnyFuckerForAMincePie · 27/12/2011 00:19

HC doesn't have an agenda, ohhh nooo

Xmas Grin
WorkingClassMum · 27/12/2011 00:19

"HC, a man's just as capable as a woman of ensuring he doesn't start a baby

Well, if we want to be ridiculous about it. But if a woman says she's dealt with the contraception, then men are entitled to walk away if that was a lie, or her own incompetence regarding contraception caused the pregnancy."

Men have just as much control of their fertility as a woman does and to suggest otherwise is bollocks. If someone jumps into sex with another person without establishing a trusting relationship first then they reap what they sow. If a person doesn't have complete faith and trust in the person they are shagging there's more than just a baby to worry about.

garlicnutcracker · 27/12/2011 00:18

When women are expected to pay child support as much as men in appropriate scenarios.

Agree with this, but thought it was already the case?

OP posts:
garlicnutcracker · 27/12/2011 00:15

HC, you think it's ridiculous to cover your dick if you don't want a baby??

OP posts:
garlicnutcracker · 27/12/2011 00:14

Thanks, WCM :)

OP posts:
garlicnutcracker · 27/12/2011 00:12

OK. I don't have children. All I know about post-divorce child care is what I've observed. This has been, in the main, that couples who feel equally responsible towards their children tend to figure out a system that works well for their children. I've often observed this being damaged by replacement partners (both sexes) who don't get it. I've also seen quite a few men 'forgetting' about their children. Very rarely have I seen a woman 'forget' hers.

I've also seen men protesting that they have rights to their children. This isn't quite an accurate or constructive view, is it? Surely the rights all belong to the children, and the responsibilities equally to both parents?

I am out of my depth with the topic - afaiac, getting too much into it would be a derailment. It's a feminism side issue, not a basic.

OP posts:
HatesCensorship · 27/12/2011 00:09

HC, a man's just as capable as a woman of ensuring he doesn't start a baby

Well, if we want to be ridiculous about it. But if a woman says she's dealt with the contraception, then men are entitled to walk away if that was a lie, or her own incompetence regarding contraception caused the pregnancy.

WorkingClassMum · 27/12/2011 00:09

Yes garlic I agree - if it was seen and practiced as a form of gymnastics and not as an extension of the sex industry

garlicnutcracker · 27/12/2011 00:04

Actually, WCM, I have no problem with cheerleading or pole dancing in themselves. Wish I were fit enough to do either! I have got a problem with lasciviousness being attached to certain gymnastic activities. (But disapprove of damning an activity for the thoughts of lechers, if that makes sense.)

OP posts:
garlicnutcracker · 27/12/2011 00:00

HC, a man's just as capable as a woman of ensuring he doesn't start a baby.

Fair enough about the aged aunt, Wilson. I do still hear a lot of people FAR younger than myself coming out with cobblers along the lines you & AF have mentioned, re men "helping" raise their own family.

That's part of what I mean about full responsibility for children, btw, for devil's advocates above. Women assume, quite rightly, responsibility for all aspects of their children's welfare. This level of responsible assumption is still lacking on the male side. There are exceptions, of course. Feminism tends to be about generalities. It is simply not generally true that men take the full weight of responsibility for kids. Things work better when both sexes take it on.

OP posts:
AnyFuckerForAMincePie · 26/12/2011 23:59

when porn is acknowledged as a negative force in society

AnyFuckerForAMincePie · 26/12/2011 23:58

censorship will quite quickly make the people who don't believe that there are those whose very existence is geared towards derailing feminist threads eat their words

cheers, censorship Wine

WorkingClassMum · 26/12/2011 23:56

Also when women's sport is as actively supported and remunerated as well as men's sport

When cheer leading and pole dancing are relegated to the history books as a terrible mistake and not encouraged as a 'healthy' activity for girls to partake in

Lackree · 26/12/2011 23:55

I agree with the vast majority of those listed, although RE: "Half of all CEOs are women, matched equally with men by corporate worth and reward packages." The packages and worth - yes! But as a feminist I would rather... "All CEO's are chosen based on their efficacy to perform that role"

I only have two, and there based on recent discussion;

*When men/women are granted 50% custody of children when both parents are equally capable.

*When women are expected to pay child support as much as men in appropriate scenarios.

WilsonFrickett · 26/12/2011 23:54

censorship would you like to point out whats been written in a biased way?

WilsonFrickett · 26/12/2011 23:52

No, I don't and actually neither does he. But people do still say it. Less now that DS is 6 and many, many people have had their heads in their hands to play with...

Also, to be strictly fair - we were at a family party recently and an old-ish aunt said 'oh isn't DH hands on, you're lucky' and I bit my tongue because she probably did mean it in terms of her own experience, IYSWIM? In her day the men would have been at the bar, not leading balloon wars on the dance floor...

HatesCensorship · 26/12/2011 23:52

You'll be "feminists" for a long time then, as most of those will never happen. Some rightly, some wrongly, and others are written in a totally biased way.

And no, it's women who choose to get pregnant (or neglect contraception) and on top of that, they have the choice to abort or not without reference to the man's opinion.

Therefore, men will never "take responsibility" if they are tricked into fatherhood.

AnyFuckerForAMincePie · 26/12/2011 23:50

when women aren't blamed for finding themselves in shit relationships

AnyFuckerForAMincePie · 26/12/2011 23:50

when men don't "help" around the house