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Original poster

Happy Patriarchymas!

384 replies

thunderboltsandlightning · 24/12/2011 21:48

I know, I know - but this is the feminist section and christmas is about celebrating the birth of the son of god, with women's spirituality and power completely written out of the story. It's the classic patriarchal mindfuck for women. Even Santa's a man, but who does most of the present-buying and wrapping?

Then there's the fact that christmas is all about women doing most of the work, with men enjoying the benefits.

Each year I find it a little more difficult to have to go through it all. Once you've seen what it's about, it gets harder to ignore the brainwashing.

Hope everybody has a happy peaceful time, whatever you are celebrating.

OP posts:
ElfenorRathbone · 27/12/2011 21:05

God the father, god the son and god the holy spirit.

Only 2/3 male then?

Xmas Hmm
Abirdinthehand · 27/12/2011 21:01

Messy, I can totally understand what you mean about acknowledging the damage done by the church through history - I think it is a fair wrd, and I am part of the church! It has a less than perfect history, or course, regarding women and also regarding many other equality / justice issues, like slavery for instance. But I would point out that the church is not homogenous - just like feminism! I wqas bought up in a church where women could not be leaders. This took me a long time to get over, and did damage me I think. But just because some churches preach this, it does not mean all do. I'm sure there are feminists you fundamentally dasagree with?

Secondly, I would say that because I am a christian, I see God as real, jesus as a hisorical figure who was also, really and actually, God. He is not a myth or symbol to me, he is my friend. And like many great figures, he is appropriated by anyone and everyone to argue for the cause. I say, from knowing him through my faith, that Jesus was a feminist. He challenged the deeply anti-woman aspects of his culture in very shocking ways, and knowing him has given me the courage to speak out against other kinds of inequality that perhps I would not have been so concious of if it was not for my faith. Thunder says, from looking at him through the myths and symbols that have grown up around him, that he is not a feminist. I would agree. Many many church pracitces and doctrines are deeply patriarchal. But I would argue that most of these doctrines are not biblical and not from Jesus. Like any beautiful, good and powerful thing, the teaching of Jesus can be taken by powerful groups (men? the Romans? Heterosexual people? the rich?Etc etc) and used to support their positions.

Thunder it is not fair to say christians cannot take critisism. Some can't some can. We're a mixed bag, just like any other group of people.

When I was struggling with some of these issues because of my church bckground, I found this book fascinating and very useful. I think anyone interested in a feminist Christian perspective would find it really good - although I recognize that's not everyone on this thread! Smile

ElfenorRathbone · 27/12/2011 20:37

Ho hum. Another poster who hasn't actually read the thread of if she has, hasn't understood it.

This thread hasn't been moaning about christmas.

It's discussing some of its aspects from a feminist perspective. Sorry you can't tell the difference Hills. I had a lovely christmas. I expect most of the feminists round here did, becasue we're not doing unncessary wifework we don't want to be doing.

HTH.

ThompsonTwins · 27/12/2011 20:16

More power to your elbow Chandon. I admire your restraint - it would drive me to drink (well, more drink) to see your DH's not very subtle avoidance of family activity and work in the kitchen etc. Good luck with the PLAN.

kickassangel · 27/12/2011 20:02

Wow. Well I guess that when women talk too much instead of smiling and nodding, then it can sound a bit shrill and moaney.
Grin

Original poster
thunderboltsandlightning · 27/12/2011 17:39

I did wish people well and hope they enjoyed themselves.

A lot of women didn't though unfortunately, and had to work very hard instead.

OP posts:
OnemorningXmasCockMonkey · 27/12/2011 17:05

Well I never, a poster in a feminist thread telling the ladies how to post.

Happy Christmas to you, Hills.

AlwaysWild · 27/12/2011 16:47

Seasons greetings to you too hillsnspills. Hope you had a good one.

HillsnSpills · 27/12/2011 14:47

Well I never. A thread in feminism section doing nothing but moan and bloody rant. Several days of doing nothing but whine and moan about christmas. Anything but wish people well and to have a good time.

Yes there is an imbalance in many households but really all I have really seen here is a load of vitriol and bad feeling. If you dont want to do it then fucking dont! No one is making you celebrate anything but for fucks sake leave other people to enjoy things.

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 14:35

I wasn't using wikipedia :) and I got bored of cutting and pasting when I couldn't be arsed to read or understand it although it is quite an imterwsting debate.

lollygag · 27/12/2011 13:32

It's not going to matter soon anyway.When the Western Banking and Economic system collapses shortly there will be a massive breakdown in 'Society'. When society ceases to exist so does Law and Order.It will essentially be the law of the jungle.
By the way,I'm calling it a win for thunderbolts in the cutting and pasting from Wikipaedia stakes.

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 12:24

Patriarchal religions are massive institutions with huge amounts of money and followers who get to preach their message week in week out, they have huge influence

Now that I agree with and it's basically why I no longer practise.

Original poster
thunderboltsandlightning · 27/12/2011 11:25

Jesus was not a feminist. He had zero to say about women's rights. He had nothing to say about male violence against women including sexual violence. He had nothing to say about the inequality that women experience (and no being equal in god's eyes doesn't count, inequality exists in concrete reality). Jesus doesn't deserve credit for something women created and women fought for. It's just offensive to be making claims like that about him.

I think what's confusing people here is that on this thread christianity is being treated as a set of myths and symbols, myths and symbols that arose from previous myths and also the culture of the time and reflected the interests of those men creating it. There are plenty of places where religion is given its undue veneration and respect but this thread is in part about examining it (well christianity) critically. Patriarchal religions are massive institutions with huge amounts of money and followers who get to preach their message week in week out, they have huge influence - many of them are institutionalised and state religions. If they can't cope with criticism in one tiny corner of the internet, well that word "fascist" springs to mind.

PS: Ghandi used to sleep with young women (older teenagers) in his bed, partially clothed, to prove that he could resist temptation. It was supposed to be an honour for the young women. He was a creep. He also nicked his ideas on resistance from the suffragetttes, who don't get held up as great holy figures the way jesus, mandela or ghandi do. But then suffragettes aren't men and through religion we're taught that only men are supposed to receive that level of adulation.

OP posts:
messyisthenewtidy · 27/12/2011 07:26

That was a nice post ABird. I agree that Jesus did some v pro woman things and as an atheist who sees Jesus as a great figure like Gandhi or Mandela I do find him inspiring but it is near impossible to see God as anything other than male, especially since, in my atheist opinion he was made in the image of man rather than the other way round.

Whilst the essence of Xtianity may be love I find it very hard to grasp. I mean the stuff Augustine and other early church founders spouted was so viscious that it makes me sick. It was very offputting as a child to be given excuse after excuse for God's ungodlike behaviour and I have met men who have told me that women shouldn't be priests because noone would listen to them.

I do think if the church were interested in doing the right thing they need to acknowledge the terrible wrong that has been done to women in the name of religion. But instead they brush it under the carpet and make excuse after excuse without recognising the psychological damage that has been passed down through the centuries. I dont think damage is too strong a word when you consider the nastiness of the creation myth, the exclusion from involvement, the witch hunts and other stereotypes thoat have coloured our collective psyche.

BTW although this thread has gotten a bit risque with all its talk of rape it has been pretty interesting. Insomuch as we are influenced strongly by Xtian beliefs it cant do any harm to analyse them.

Abirdinthehand · 27/12/2011 02:27

Gulp - first time ever posting on the feminism board, please be kind to me...

I am a Christian. There are plenty of feminist Christian theologians, some of whom refer to god as she. Unfortunately we don't have a genre neutral pronoun, otherwise it would be the most appropriate.

There is plenty of church history which, any reasonable Christian would accept, is deeply biased against women (witch burning, the catholic prohibition against female priests - you know the score!). The bible was written by men, and that also comes across loud and clear. But as a Christian, I understand I am receiving this faith through 2000 years and more of complex history, and yet through the nonsense I do see some remarkable things. I see a 1st century male jew who spoke to Samaritan women, healed women who were bleeding even though just touching them made him 'unclean' and could get him stoned, raised women from the dead, and bothered to teach women scripture, a deeply transgressive act. I see him choose to be born by a human mother, and first appear after he comes back to life to a woman - and ask her to be the bearer of the news to the other disciples. I see him befriend prostitutes (I'm not talking about Mary magdalene - it's not clear in the gospels if she was a prostitute - but there are lots of other prostitutes who clearly are, iykwim). I see him defend a woman who was about to be stoned for adulatory and save her life. I see him praise a widow who gives what she has, over a man who gives what she can spare.

Jesus was a feminist. So when I look at my faith, I approach it wit the question, "how do I receive a tradition that is biased against me?" rather than, "how do I approach a god who is biased against me?"

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 02:05

and with that, its off to sleep for me.

Night All.

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 02:03

And yes, god is a man. God the father, remember?

God is 3, God the father, God the son, God the Holy Spirit.

Tortington · 27/12/2011 02:01

there is no gender neutral pro-noun and in english the default is male - its the English language - thats why!

in the beginning god created - but then this isn't the argument - the argument is whether god raped the virgin mary with his god penis * even though the holy spirit is well...errrrr a spirit... then told everyone to keep calling her a virgin when he

The male god creator of the human race is a patriarchal reversal of what actually happens. It's an erasure of woman. Your creatrix was a woman Custardo.

this is not fact. this is an opinion. my god is neither male not female - that is my opinion. If your god is a woman - good for you

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 01:59

TheBrandy, I am happy to stand corrected, as it is a long old time since I studied religion, but as I understand it, the 2 things that stand Catholicism apart from the other Christian Religions are Belief in the Virgin Birth and Transubstantiation. I thought only Catholics believed in either??

MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 01:57

I wasnt talking about your beliefs thunder I was referring to the religion you are so happily decimating.

And I will post on whatever thread I chose to post on, much the same as you feel free to do.

I happen to disagree with you referring to the Christian God as a paedophilic rapist, I find offensive, and so I have challenged it, God did not impregnante anyone.

Religions, most of them, not just Christianty, causes huge amounts of pain and suffering, to all genders.

TheBrandyButterflyEffect · 27/12/2011 01:53

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Original poster
thunderboltsandlightning · 27/12/2011 01:50

You don't respect my beliefs at all MJ. If you did you wouldn't be on this thread with your patriarchal propaganda.

Demanding respect for a religion that has created suffering and still creates suffering for so many women and girls, and has been the cause of murder and torture of so many women is ridiculous.

OP posts:
Original poster
thunderboltsandlightning · 27/12/2011 01:48

Why do you keep calling him him if he's genderless? "He" is a gendered pronoun meaning male.

God doesn't create life, nature creates life, and on this planet the female generally does.

The male god creator of the human race is a patriarchal reversal of what actually happens. It's an erasure of woman. Your creatrix was a woman Custardo.

OP posts:
MJinSparklyStockings · 27/12/2011 01:45

we could simply trade google quotes all night, I am more than capable of finding numerous posts about how the gospels empower women, the difference is I have a basic understanding of the religion (which again I point out I dont practise) and some respect for the beliefs of others.

Tortington · 27/12/2011 01:42

and god always creates life by talking or speaking not sex - there is not gender to god - its just that man wrote the bible so the pronouns are male lots of default pronouns are male - i think it is in english and ancient greek - your male unless proven otherwise

ofcourse in a book written by men, 0put together by men and edited by men so there are no female gospels left then theres going to be strong masculine bent to this GENDERLESS spirit

its like giving god a race - saying god is white - its a tricky road to go down is that. and is only to further your own ends.

He has no race and he has no need to procreate and therefore doesn't need a penis

cos He is spirit